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    Wonder Tools
    Episode•May 21, 2026•1h 3m

    🛑 Skip the Upgrade

    I love new gadgets and gizmos, and I’m constantly trying new sites and apps. So I was intrigued by the title of Eric Athas’s upcoming book, Saying No to New. Eric’s an editor at the New York Times, where he helps journalists make the most of new tools. He’s also a lifelong early adopter. He told me he used to wait in line for new iPhones. But his upcoming bookhttps://ericathas.substack.com/is about thinking twice about new stuff. In our Substack Live conversation, we talked about old gadgets we still love and new gadgets we never use. Eric shared advice on how to tell the difference between things that might genuinely improve your life, and gizmos that will end up at the back of a closet. We even did a little show and tell with various odd gadgets in our offices. 📺 Watch the full conversation above, or read highlights below. 1. The Vanishing Gap Between Wanting and Getting When Eric and I were growing up, if you wanted to buy something cool you saw on TV, you’d have to drive to a store. You or your parents would have to spend cash. If you ordered something by mail, you’d wait weeks for delivery. Today, you can tap on a phone and the thing that caught your eye appears at your door the next day. You can even buy now, pay later, so you don’t need cash. Coming next? AI agents that shop for you proactively. They anticipate what you want so you don’t have to make any decision at all. Eric calls this the collapse of the “new thing gap.” The time, distance, and cost between seeing something new and acquiring it has shrunk. That gap used to protect us from buying on impulse. * One-click ordering eliminated distance. * Free shipping removed the physical effort of the pickup errand. * Deferred payments eliminated financial friction. You don’t even need the money. Eric suggests we reintroduce friction by pausing long enough to ask whether the new thing will actually matter a month from now. 2. Show and Tell: Our Gadget Graveyards 🎪 Eric and I compared old odd gadgets in our offices. From my desk: * Multiple VR headsets. I have at least three, including one with the plastic still on it. You slot your phone in, close it up, and get an immersive view. Remember when the New York Times announced in 2015 it would ship a million Google Cardboard VR headsets? Eric confirmed that the headset now lives in the Times’s in-house museum. * Lumo posture band. This posture sensor had a belt that wrapped around my waist and buzzed when I slouched. It was a cool, if weird, concept, but the buzzing was distracting, I still slouch, and the product was discontinued. It’s lived in my drawer for years. * PLAUD AI recorder next to my brother’s old tape recorder. The old one has a red record button, a play button, and a stop button. You know exactly what to do with it. The Plaud is sleeker but less intuitive. * Sand timer. This one is both decorative and useful. It’s silent, easy to use for timing, and never needs to be charged. I use it to stay focused during hard tasks. From Eric’s desk: * A USB coffee mug warmer. Cracked. Unused. Eric’s take: once you introduce a USB cord into the coffee experience, it loses its magic. * NeeDoh stress balls. A kid craze. Eric’s children wanted them, squeezed them for a day, and abandoned them. He wrote about the NeeDoh fad here. I have multiple stress balls, and I use them often. Consumer Reports warns they can create a sticky mess or worse. 3. New Things Worth Saying Yes To ✅ Eric’s book isn’t about rejecting everything new. It’s about choosing things thoughtfully so the genuinely useful things don’t get crowded out. Some of the new tools we like: * Seek app. Free. Point your phone at any plant or animal in nature and learn what it is. I discovered it during the pandemic and still use it regularly. * Merlin app. Free. Record birdsong and the app identifies the species. Eric and I are both fans. * Granola. AI meeting summaries. It’s now part of my workflow. Here’s why. It’s infrastructure for me, not novelty. Free for basic transcriptions and summaries. I pay $14/month for additional features, like storing meeting notes for months and querying them with Claude. What these tools have in common: they solve a real problem, they’ve lasted, and we’ve stuck with them. Sponsored Message Sending Emails but Getting Zero Replies?It might not be your copy. Many startups unknowingly have broken email deliverability, causing messages to land straight in spam folders. That means lost leads and wasted outreach. Warmy.io automatically warms up your email accounts, protects your sender reputation, and keeps your emails landing in real inboxes.If email is part of your growth strategy, this matters.Fix your deliverability before your next campaign. 4. Our Brains Chase Seductive Novelty 🧠 Eric’s new book is grounded in neuroscience. When we encounter something new, we get a dopamine hit. That neurological response evolved to help our ancestors survive. New food sources, new paths, new shelter: those discoveries were rewarding. But sometimes novelty seduces us without offering anything meaningful. In one study Eric described, rats repeatedly crossed an electrified grid just to explore an unfamiliar area. They chose pain plus novelty over a known food source. Humans do something similar. We covet a new phone partly for its camera, but partly just because it’s new. Then we do it all over again. Even if we can’t afford it. That’s one reason why so many Americans are in debt. I recently read Dopamine Nation, a surprisingly engrossing book by Dr. Anna Lembke, about how our brains are so readily seduced by pleasure. What results is an unfortunate cycle. We get something new, enjoy it briefly, and soon we’re scanning for the next new thing. My college advisor, Daniel Kahneman, studied and wrote about this “hedonic treadmill” effect. His research showed that we overestimate how much a new purchase will improve how we feel. And novelty tends to wear off quickly. He called it “hedonic adaptation.” That doesn’t mean we should avoid all new things. But it does mean we should think carefully about whether there’s something genuinely meaningful behind the new shine. 5. Experiences Outlast Products 🎒 Research shows that trips, cooking classes, concerts, and other new experiences tend to give us more lasting delight than new products do. That’s partly because experiences tend to be social. You go with someone. Or you meet people there. You talk about it afterwards. Trips have a beginning, middle, and end. You have a story you can retell. A new pan doesn’t generate much conversation after the first week. Its novelty fades fast. Kahneman, who was one of the best teachers and advisors I’ve ever had, introduced me to the related “comforts vs. pleasure” theory. It was originally described by Tibor Scitovsky in The Joyless Economy: The Psychology of Human Satisfaction. It changed the way I think about spending money. Comforts are things we buy and then quickly adapt to. A nicer couch. A bigger TV. They feel great at first, then they fade into the background. Pleasures, on the other hand, are transient experiences: a delicious dinner with friends, a live concert, surprise flowers, or a summer walk with someone you love in a new city. These kinds of experiences are brief, but they retain their emotional charge when you reflect back on them. Kahneman’s argument, supported by numerous studies, was that pleasures enhance happiness more durably than comforts, because we don’t adapt to them. The research findings’ bottom line: if you want more happiness, splurge on special experiences with loved ones rather than expensive things. Eric’s suggestion: if you’re drawn to something new, try turning the purchase into a social experience. Waiting in line with a friend for trendy cookies transforms a dopamine-seeking buying excursion into an experience and a fun shared memory. Daniel Pink recently made a compellingvideo on the same theme: how to spend money so it actually makes you happier. His take aligns with Eric’s and Kahneman’s. Spend on experiences, not things. 6. Ask These Questions 🔍 Eric suggests a few questions to ask before you acquire something new: * Will I still use this in a month? Will this serve an ongoing purpose, or will it get stuck in the background? (I’ll use this one the next time I’m tempted by a kitchen gadget or iPhone app). * Is it intuitive to use? Eric points to modern car dashboards as a cautionary tale: touchscreens that look futuristic can end up being more confusing than the knobs and buttons they replaced. * Is it likely to distract you? A sand timer, a paper book, a physical photograph: these do one thing well without pinging you. A single-purpose app on your phone, on the other hand, puts you one swipe away from email, Instagram, and other Internet rabbit holes. 7. Good Enough is Sometimes Enough 👍 Eric’s coffee maker still works. His wife wants him to upgrade. He resists, not out of stubbornness, but because it does exactly what he needs. He programs it at night. He wakes up to fresh coffee. No learning curve. His suggestion: before replacing something, ask whether what you already have is still good enough. Something better always exists, but if the upgrade is just about novelty, it might not be worth the effort, expense, or space. I have more than 600 apps on my phone. I use only a small fraction regularly. But I’ve realized that going back and manually deleting everything I’m not using is a waste of time. In the digital domain, unlike the physical one, unused things don’t take up much space. Going back and deleting emails or apps one by one feels like more of a waste than letting them sit idly in the graveyard. 8. Paper Books and Quiet Treasures 📖 About two-thirds of Americans still read books on paper despite the convenience of ebooks. Part of what’s appealing about them is sensory: the way pages turn, the way a book feels in your hands, the smell of the paper. But there’s another advantage. A paper book doesn’t send notifications. It offers no tempting apps. The same goes for vinyl records, Polaroid photos, sand timers, and handwritten journals. Each of these enables you to deeply focus on what you’re doing. My grandfather taught me to use a Minolta camera when I was little. The quality of its pictures doesn’t match that of an iPhone. But old objects like the Minolta have intrinsic value beyond their function. A hand-me-down camera is a reminder of love. I have more than 50,000 photos on my phone. That abundance, paradoxically, devalues each individual image. When film was limited and developing took days, every picture felt more precious. Anticipating which pictures might turn out was part of the thrill of photography. I don’t want to return to that era. But the photos my wife and I have printed and framed mean more to me than many of the ones sitting in my phone’s camera roll. 9. Choices Are Contagious 😷 The last chapter in Eric’s book is about invisible influence. If your friends are constantly upgrading their homes, devices, or apps, you might feel the pull to keep pace. It’s tempting to follow the cultural lead of those around us. The reverse is also true. Choosing to stick to what you have quietly signals to other people that it’s okay to keep the old thing, to skip the trend. Read more 📚 * Saying No to New Available for pre-order. Out September 15 from Balance. * Eric Athas on Substack Behind-the-scenes updates, pre-order bonuses, and a decision-making tool tied to the book’s ideas. * Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lembke. The neuroscience of novelty-seeking. Eric and I both referenced it. * The Joyless Economy by Tibor Scitovsky. A psychology classic about what impacts happiness and how comforts differ from pleasures. What’s a new thing you say no to? Leave a comment 👇 Thank you Des Kennedy, Betty Solomon, George K Thomas, and many others for tuning into my live video with Eric Athas and thanks to you, reader, for making it all the way down here to the end of this post. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wondertools.substack.com/subscribe

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    Transcript

    0:01

    So maybe we can both introduce ourselves really quickly. For anyone listening or watching, I'm Jeremy Kaplan. I write the Wonder Tools newsletter. I'm here at the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism in New York City where I teach journalism. And Eric, tell us who you are.

    0:17

    Hi everyone, I'm Eric at this I'm an editor at the New York Times. My job at the Times is I work in the newsroom. And essentially journalists learn new tools and new skills so that they can expand the different ways that they tell stories. And I'm also an author of a book out in September called Saying no to New and its bookstore is September 15th, but it's available for pre order now.

    0:47

    Eric, I'm really excited about the COVID of the book. In particular, I want to show people what it looks like. Here's the COVID image. Give us a quick summary of the book, what it's about, what the key takeaways are, maybe what might surprise people.

    1:07

    Yeah, so this is say no to New. And essentially this is a book about sort of the endless pull of novelty that we experience in the world today. You know, there are new trends to follow, new products to buy, new gadgets, new kitchen gadgets, new apps for your phone and your computer. We live in an abundance of novelty. And many of those new things are very useful, right? Some of them are provide utilities, some of them provide joy, but not all of them. And there's so much choice that we find ourselves in a place where we are oftentimes spending our money and our time and our attention on new thing after new thing after new thing. And actually what I write about in Saying no to New is that our brains are wired to gravitate to the new things in the world. And so we can end up in this place where we're just saying yes, the new thing after new thing and just burning through resources. And so the book is all about how to reshape that relationship with novelty, how to look at something that's new that comes along and really understand whether it's going to be something useful, whether it's going to be something that's going to bring you some kind of utility, joy or happiness or not, and to make better decisions about the new things you come across in your life.

    2:39

    So this speaks to me so directly because I love new things. I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to technology and websites. I write about new websites, get new gadgets on. My office is surrounded by, I'm surrounded by, you know, new stuff. So, so give me some examples if you could, and maybe others listening, you know, can relate to my interest in gadgets and tools. Give me some examples of things where we probably don't need that new thing or it's just net negative, right? It's, it's wasting more of our time or money than necessary. What are some examples that come to mind for you?

    3:13

    Yeah, and by the way, I, I also love new things. I mean, part of the reason I wrote this book was because I've always been an early adopter. I've always been someone who, you know, I used to wait in line to get the new iPhone. In my job in journalism, I'm constantly tinkering with new stuff and through that work have become sort of acutely aware of like, ooh, like this thing is not very useful. So one of the things that you, that is really important is whether or not you're thinking before you're adopting something new. It's one of the reasons why I love wonder tools because it sort of causes you to like stop and think and really interrogate some new tool and figure out if it's going to be useful to you. So a few clues as to whether or not you're looking at something and it's going to actually be worth it. One way to think about it is, is this new thing going to be something that's going to last me a long time? Is this something I'm going to be using over the long term? Oftentimes with new products, material goods that we buy, we end up chucking them in the closet after a few days. I've got two kids, so this is constantly a thing in our home. Jeremy, I think, I don't know if we're going to do now, but maybe later we're going to do some show and tell to on some of this stuff. So that's one thing is really try to imagine like, is this going to be, you know, something that I'm going to use, test it out, you know, and really kind of get to know it and whether or not that's going to do it. And so what I, what I find is there's a lot of material goods that, that don't really provide much utility or aren't really solving a problem. Kitchen gadgets are a place where there's a lot of this, uh, we have, you know, sort of a graveyard of different kitchen gadgets that seemed really cool at the time. But like, actually, you know, what the old, you know, knife was just like, worked just fine for, for, for cutting things up. A good one was Like a, there was like a salad mixer with a button on top that spun the salad around to, to dry off the, the water, which was cool again for a little bit, but then ended up in the back of a closet. And then as far as digital, new things go very similarly, if I pulled up my phone right now, I could probably find a whole bunch of apps that I've downloaded that maybe I've paid money for. Certainly I invested some time in and they're just sort of like just sort of there in the back in the graveyard of your phone. So that would be one of the biggest things I look for, is, is this going to actually provide long term value?

    6:01

    So I'm smiling because I actually started a blog at one point, very short lived in the dustbin of my tech history about kitchen gadgets. Exactly.

    6:13

    Oh really?

    6:13

    Yeah, I love kitchen gadgets. From rice cookers and bread makers to ice cream machines and waffle makers, all those things. I love those. And living in a small New York City apartment, not the ideal place for, for experimenting with kitchen gadgets. So that was a short lived project. But yeah, I could totally relate to that. And in the digital domain, I have more than, I've written about this. I have more than 600 apps on my phone.

    6:41

    Right.

    6:41

    Most of which are unused. It's not that I'm claiming to use all of those apps, most of them are unused. And actually one of the insights that I've gained over the years has been to avoid the wastage of time of going through manually, getting rid of all of the stuff that I'm not using. In the physical domain, obviously if you have a bunch of kitchen gadgets that are cluttering up your kitchen, you can't just leave them there. But in the digital domain, you know, if you have tons of old apps sitting on your phone actually doesn't necessarily make that much difference. I mean, depending on your storage, et cetera, you may need to at some point clear things out. But in general, like taking the time to go back every single day and find things you're not using actually wastes more time than just kind of focusing on what you actually do want to use and let those things lie. In the digital domain, the space actually isn't as much at a premium as it is in the physical.

    7:37

    Right.

    7:38

    In the physical domain, yeah, let's go through some of our gadgets in our show and tell. Yeah, let's do our show and tell because we both have, I think, some stuff in our offices that maybe are less essential than other things. I'll start with the classic, you know, VR headsets. So I've got a bunch of these. Now this is the. The one that's maybe most comfortable.

    8:01

    It does look very comfortable. It's got the AE branding on there. Very cool.

    8:04

    Yeah. For anyone who doesn't know or is not familiar with this, it's a VR headset where essentially you put in your phone inside. So you open this thing up, you put your phone in, you close it up, and then you are using a kind of VR view so that you can see. I don't know, it's a more immersive view, essentially a video. And the glasses have some lenses that allow you to kind of feel like you're immersed in. And I've got a bunch of variations on that theme. Right. So this is a different set that I picked up at one point. It's a little bit more portable. Same idea where you slot your phone into this little.

    8:40

    Jeremy, I think everyone on this probably wants you to put those on just for a second.

    8:44

    Oh, gosh, this is such a ridiculous thing. I don't even remember how to use these. Which shows you how little used it actually is. But it looked cool at the time. It had a novelty effect. Here's one more pair, even smaller, and again, same idea. You put your phone in there and then you get a VR view. So anyway, the VR headsets. And I have to say, Eric, since you're from the times, like the times, I believe, sent out a million, if I'm not mistaken, of those cardboard ones. Cardboard ones when they were doing the Samsung project for, you know, something new every day, which was exciting. Right. But that's a case again, where, you know, how many of those million are still in use, to your point? You know, there was a novelty there, but in the long run. Yeah, maybe we didn't need all those.

    9:35

    Well, to make your point, Jeremy, br which is, you know, obviously for. For a long time seen as sort of this futuristic gadget. At the New York Times, in our headquarters in. In Midtown, Midtown Manhattan, we have a little museum of sort of the New York Times of the past. And that cardboard headset is in the museum. So it is an artifact of the past, of something that had this sort of fleeting sort of excitement and energy around it. But, you know, today sort of, I think, sits on a lot of shelves or in the back of a lot of closets.

    10:07

    Yeah. What. What's your. What's one of yours?

    10:10

    Okay, so this, this is a. Many people have seen these before. This is a coffee mug warmer. It's you can. It's got a little USB cord, okay? Plug this in, keep your coffee cup hot. And the concept is it makes a lot of sense, right? You want to keep your coffee warm, but, you know, it requires. This is a great example of something that a cup of coffee or cup of tea or whatever your beverage of choice is something that's been around for a very long time. There's this sort of analog experience of making the coffee and pouring it in and the steam comes out. And, um, my personal preference is once you start introducing like a USB cord into that equation, it sort of starts to lose its. Its magic. Um, so this thing has sort of been sort of just laying around. You can see it's got kind of a crack on it. That's one thing. And then I'll show you these because I recently did a video about these for any, Any, um, uh, parents out there. These are called neatos. These are like stress ball.

    11:28

    Oh, right.

    11:29

    And. And they're, they're. They're squishy and they're these. This is like all the craze right now is, are these things and people are selling them on ebay for hundreds of dollars. People are, yeah, there you go. You go. And that's sort of the old school version of this old one. And look, they're fun, right? They're cool. But I can tell you from experience, in my home, they'll buy them and they'll be like, I got. I got the cake one. And then, you know, it's down here in my office. It's. It's probably never going to be looked at again.

    12:07

    So just to play devil's advocate here, it seems pretty harmless, right? These add a little color to one's office. They're not too expensive. Maybe there's an environmental cost to producing all this stuff. That's not, you know, that's not nothing. But what's the real. What's the real harm? Someone might say, well, why, why, why do we need to say no to this stuff? Like, what's the damage? Or what's the problem?

    12:27

    It's a great question. And by the way, I. I always try to say this. My book is called Saying no to New. That title is really meant to stop you in your tracks because it's so counter to how our society presents products and information. New. We're told we're sort of trained, and, and our brains work this way. New is meant to mean better. And so you go into a store, the new things are the better things. You go look at the new products or you go on your phone, if you want on your phone right now, you're going to find new information and you'll go on social media and there's influencers with new products. And so, and so the, the, the challenge there is if we go through life with that mindset that new is always better. You know, we end up sometimes, you know, with fairly harmless stuff, right? Like, okay, this is maybe like five or ten bucks. But those smaller decisions about new things do add up. And they add up in the form of spending money, they add up in the form of clutter. They add up in the form of you get something new that eats up a lot of your time and your attention. And so the trick is for some of these smaller new things is in the moment, it seems very harmless and small. But the more of those decisions you make about new things, because there are hundreds of millions of products being sold, the more you're going to start to add those up and you start to sort of lose control over the long term. The other thing I always do try to say is that saying no to new doesn't mean saying no to new to all things. And in fact, in my book, I write about how if you can get really good at this and really understanding the new things that are going to bring you value, then you can start to see, not only are you going to start to sort of push away the ones that aren't going to give you value, but you're going to start to really embrace the new things that are truly useful because they kind of get lost in this sort of abundance of new things. And so the idea is not to sort of beat yourself up over a $5 trinket that you get and say, oh, you know, I've blown it, my life is over, I've got this squishy thing in my home. But to just sort of be more intentional and bring thinking back into those, those decision making processes.

    15:06

    Yeah, I want a few, share a few thoughts that I think that, that you just sparked in me. One is remembering a friend, a former colleague and a friend, Don Wilmot, who used to have a rule of thumb which was if he brought something new into his apartment, he would take something out.

    15:21

    Right?

    15:22

    Very, very, very clever. Rule of thumb. Obviously it's easier said than done, but maintaining a minimalist kind of apartment, especially in New York City, some people like to adopt rules like that. Another thing that comes to mind is this book, Dopamine Nation, this idea in there that struck me that we are often kind of seeking this novelty As a way of stimulating something in ourselves that is short lived, right. Essentially. And to your point, yes, like getting these little squishies for a few bucks may not be a big deal, but if we're seeking novelty and we get a new car and we get a new home and you know, depending on the means or wealth we have, we get, you know, these huge things. You know, some people buy mansions, they buy, you know, second, third homes, they buy fancy cars or even planes or what, what have you. Yachts, I don't know. And you know, those are the things that we could say, or at least some people might say, hey, maybe that kind of conspicuous consumption, that extravagant consumption in the long run at scale done by lots and lots of billionaires, right. Is problematic and even not by billionaires, right. Like those of us who have lesser means and are spending on those things that actually may have some, some damaging impacts. And, and it stems maybe to your point from the same place that gets us to get these little things, right? That's that seeking, that novelty seeking, right. Can, can be exhibited in, in lots of different SC. Levels of scale.

    16:49

    Yeah, yeah. And you, and you touch on a really great point there, which is, and, and in saying note to new, I sort of walk readers through this that our brains are hardwired to gravitate to, to novelty. And part of this comes from evolution. You know, picture our ancestors a couple hundred thousand years ago, our ability to seek out new things as part of our survival. You know, finding new food, new, you know, berries, new patches, exploring new land to find new homes. All of these actions were, were beneficial to our species. And but for most of our existence, new things were scarce. Today they're abundant. But the same mechanisms are at play. And the way it works is that there's been lots of research that shows that when we see something new and novel, we get sort of a spritz of dopamine. And the reason for that is going back to our sort of evolutionary roots, new things oftentimes lead to rewards. And they have for most of our existence. But the other really fascinating thing that I learned in saying no to new is that actually novelty itself can be a reward. And what I mean by that is, okay, so you go out and you buy new iPhone, let's say dopamine is sort of driving you to get that new product because it's really cool, it comes in new colors, it's got new features, it's shiny. But the other thing that may be happening is actually just the idea of something new is the reward uh, there were studies done years and years ago where they would have these mazes where rats would run through them and they would have food. And so the rats. Every time they'd run the rats through, they'd find the food. And so they got to the point where they know, okay, they know where the food is, and that was the reward for them. But then they would add a new leg to the maze. And so the rats could either go to the food where they know they've got something tasty, or go sort of explore this unknown area. And they would explore the unknown area. There's a similar one where the rats would actually cross an electrified grid just to get something new and unknown. And so they were actually willing to go through a little bit of pain to get something new. So we're hardwired to get new things. And this brings us back to your point, which is a really good one, which is one of the issues with sort of racking up a lot of these little new acquisitions as we go is, is that we believe that they're going to be really rewarding. Oftentimes we think that a new product is going to make us happier and bring us joy, but we get it and we enjoy it maybe for a little bit. And then that sort of excitement wears off, and then we. The dopamine kicks back in and we go, okay, we got to go, you know, explore something else new. And what we end up doing is sort of chasing what we think is happiness in, you know, a new coffee cup warmer or whatever it might be. But in fact, we're sort of diverting our attention and our money and our. And. And our joy and other values away from. From the things potentially that we really do care about and really do want to spend our resources on.

    20:20

    Yeah. This reminds me also of the notion of the hedonic treadmill. My college advisor, Daniel Kahneman, used to talk about how we seek things out, thinking they're going to change what we feel.

    20:31

    Right.

    20:32

    And in fact, a lot of times we're just on that treadmill. We're going to return quickly. In the book I mentioned earlier, the Dopamine Nation, the authors talk about this as the seesaw where we press down on one side and it kind of lifts know. Sets our. Our pleasure sensors in motion, and then we kind of are. Are going to naturally fall back quick into. Quickly into equilibrium. There's a notion that. That Kahneman used to talk about, too, also in this realm, which is the idea of comforts versus pleasures, comforts being things that we buy and Then adapt to like a, a nice couch or some other kind of physical thing that we kind of quickly just adapt to, are used to, and sort of fails to continue providing the same level of enjoyment as other things. And he contrasted that with the idea of pleasures. So pleasures are things that are transitory and you experience them. The typically experiences like going to a concert, maybe an example, or traveling where

    21:32

    you're there just for a short period

    21:33

    of time, or getting some flowers or having a special meal, those are things that you experience and then they're gone. And they're therefore pleasures because they're not sort of long term comforts. And his argument, I think, based on, you know, some of the research in the psychology domain was that those things actually are what enhance happiness.

    21:52

    Right.

    21:52

    To a greater extent than the comforts to which we adapt. What's your, what's your take on that? How does that fit into your, your framework?

    21:58

    Yeah, and by the way, I, I mentioned Daniel Kahneman a few times in the book and some of his, his work. Um, that's, that's something I touch on as well in saying no to new, which is that I write a lot about the right type of new, and there are a few different things that sort of get us there. So one is you mentioned experiences, you mentioned, you know, going on a trip or going out to eat or learning a new skill. All of those are new. Right. But, but, but research has shown that, that those type of new experiences can help with brain health. They do bring you lasting joy. One of the really interesting things I learned about new experiences is that there was actually a study done that I've mentioned in the book about where they actually said they, they surveyed people and they said, okay, are you someone who appreciates sort of material goods or experiences? Um, and, and, and, and actually had them sort of ruminate a little bit on the, the difference between those things. So, so one example might be you go and you buy a bunch of kitchen stuff, a whole new pan set and, and so forth. Or you know, you go out and you take a cooking class or you go out to a new, a new restaurant. And what they found is that those experiences do bring more, more joy and happiness. And one of the interesting things about that is that there, there is an inherent social nature to that. So if you go and you buy something and you go home with it or these days, right, it drops on your, your front steps and you open the cardboard box from Amazon or whatever and you got it and you're like, I got the thing that is sort of an ex, a product, it's a material good and you sort of sit with it with a new experience. You're out in the world, you're meeting new people, you're out with friends, you're out with family, you're with coworkers or whatever it might be. And that social aspect makes those new things better. It actually like sort of helps them. It helps you like sort of enrich in your life. And, and, and people are sort of felt, they're like their well being is, is improved by those. And one of the cool things about that is because the sort of social aspect of that sort of also lasts longer. Right? You can talk about a trip with a friend. You could say, hey, I went on this trip, I went here, I visited this. You don't really talk about the products you buy. You do, but, but the difference is it's not like a beginning, middle and end, right? I got the thing, it works. Whereas you go on a trip and you can actually tell a story about, about what you did. And so that sort of also helps boost that long term, sort of fulfilling nature of, of a new experience versus versus a new product.

    24:51

    That's so interesting. You know, it strikes me that a lot of the way we experience reality is through our internal thinking, right? And so as you just described, when we have these experiences, we also set in motion a few kinds of internal thinking. One is introspection, right? We're thinking about ourselves and who we are. And that happens when, when that happens. Oftentimes we're envisioning experiences and social experiences rather than pots or pans or something physical.

    25:18

    Right?

    25:19

    Retrospection, right? We're looking back at our past. We're often not thinking about, oh, those pans, oh, the couch, oh, you know, this physical object that I purchased or acquired. We're thinking, oh, what about, you know, that experience was so special. Like remembering those moments, right? Interaction you had or that laugh you had, or some other kind of emotional experience that you're reflecting back on and experiencing again and enjoying again, Right?

    25:44

    Right.

    25:45

    Even looking forward, prospection, like looking ahead to something you're excited about, right? Yes, you may, you may experience that with objects. You know, I can't wait till I get the new iPhone, as you know, I can't wait till I get the new huge TV or whatever it is that you're looking forward to. But probably, oh, that vacation is going to be amazing, right? That experience. I can't wait to see that person again. I can't wait to have that dinner, that special experience, right? That kind of prospection, looking forward to those things probably tends to be, is, I'm just thinking out loud here. That probably tends to be more around the experience that, the novelty of that, that engagement with that person rather than that object.

    26:24

    Right.

    26:24

    That, that kind of novelty that you were describing. Which is, which is interesting.

    26:27

    Right. And, and, and one trick I, I, I mentioned in saying no to new is you can combine the two. So, so one argument I, I sometimes hear when I talk about the book is like, well, and you mentioned it earlier, like what's the harm? Right. So I write about in the book sort of the craze around something like a crumble cookie, right. Where people. One time I was out in the city and there's this like this long line outside of a cookie shop. And, and on the one hand that's like my instant reaction is, are these cookies that good? Are you doing it because you really are want to enjoy the cookie? Are you doing it because of the sort of the hype around this thing? You don't want to get the newest crumble cookie. Now if you have a category of things like that, that like it actually isn't, you're actually not doing it for the enjoyment. You're doing it for the novelty. You're doing it for sort of the social cred. And it's not going to make, it's not going to give you joy and you're just sort of racing from new thing to the next. Well, if you combine that with a social experience and you go with a friend, then you've changed the equation a little bit. You've made it more of an experience and that's great. And you get to wait in line with a friend, you get to catch up with them, you get to laugh and take pictures of the photo. Suddenly this sort of silly novelty thing that it changes from being something you're just fixated on getting because you feel like you have to get it to something that is memorable and is social and actually might bring you some lasting joy.

    27:59

    That's nice. I like that idea. It's a way of transforming something from a negative to A to a positive.

    28:05

    Right.

    28:06

    Saying no to new. Saying new N O U S to new. Which is, which is, which is nice. Something you can do with, with others. Let's see what else we have in our offices. I don't know what else you have. I have a lot of novelty stuff. This is my Lumo Band, which is, if anyone can guess what this thing is, you deserve a prize.

    28:27

    Some kind of workout thing.

    28:28

    No, that's a good guess. It actually affixes around your waist and it measures your posture. It has a sensor, so when you slouch, as I often do, it buzzes. Right. So the idea is that it's kind of a way to train yourself to.

    28:43

    Oh, that's good.

    28:45

    To sit up straight. To stand up straight. Of course, you know, as with many other objects in my office, it has been relegated to a drawer.

    28:51

    You wear it all the time, I'm sure.

    28:53

    Right, right, exactly. And this one, this one is one of the new generation of these AI recorders. This is a plowed device. People are familiar with that. And it's essentially a record digital recorder. Right. A new version of an old object. This is one my brother used to use, which is an old digital recorder.

    29:19

    Right.

    29:19

    Just like a tape, just an old fashioned tape. Tape recorder. And that was, that has been around, what, since, I don't know, since the 80s, basically. And this is brand new, Brand new version of that old thing. And actually not that much more useful really. I would say in the end.

    29:42

    I'll show a couple things in a second, but you're touching on something really useful, which is you compared those two objects and can you pull up the tape? The, the old, old school one.

    29:54

    Yeah.

    29:56

    So you can see there, there's buttons, right? And. And just on this little screen that people are looking at, you know exactly what to do with this, right? You've got the red record button, you got the play button, you got the stop, you got the back, you got the forward. And now if you pull up, pull up the AI version of it, I'm sure there's instructions. And I, and I know, like, once you set it up, it'll be automated. But one of the things that we find today is that new things are often designed with sort of a futuristic look to them. And it plays on the sort of novelty part of our brain that. Where we. That we are drawn to things that we've never seen before, like that little AI thing that you have. But oftentimes, and not always a lot of products today obviously are designed beautifully and just work very well. But oftentimes that futuristic design, that novelty look that's meant to be like, ooh, this is different. Which gets us maybe to spend some money and maybe to spend some time on. It doesn't always work with human nature. And so you see this a lot with. I write a lot in the book about car dashboards is one of the best examples of this. If you. Car dashboards are some of the most confusing parts Things that you have to deal with in sort of modern day technology. Finding the radio. And where, where am I? Like, oh, I'm on the gps, but I don't want to be on the gps, I want to be over here. Whereas the old fashioned car dashboard was just, you know, the radio, the air conditioning, the volume. Um, so that's an example of something when you're looking and deciding on a new thing, look for some of those, you know, is this going to work with the way that I use my fingers? Is it going to work with the way I use my eyes? Or is it just, does it look futuristic for the sake of looking futuristic? Another example of this is, is the, the bright lights that are oftentimes on fans and other sort of appliances that, ooh, it's, it's really blue. So it's, your eye is drawn to it but then, you know, you're trying to nod off, you know, go to sleep at night and there's this blue light shining from across the room. So the, that's another way to sort of assess whether a new thing is going to work for you or not is if it's, if it's going to actually cause you to have to use a lot of your, a lot of effort to learn it and use it, or if it's actually going to work really nicely with, with the way that humans are meant to work, which is with their, their, you know, their senses.

    32:37

    Another example of that would be this sand timer I have.

    32:40

    Oh, yes, yeah, my desk, right.

    32:42

    Very, very clear.

    32:43

    You know exactly what you're going to get from that.

    32:45

    Like how, how efficiently am I working now? Can I get this done in a few minutes rather than wasting a lot of time on it? And in comparison with digital timers I've had, right. I have several, I have several in my office that have broken or that the battery has died or that the screen is too small or, you know, I can't find it when I need it. Like these are visible, easy to use, never need to be recharged. You know, look, they look also nice.

    33:12

    Yeah, kind of mesmerizing. I'm sort of watching it fall through there.

    33:15

    Let's see, we'll see how long I go on with this answer or this comment. But yeah, they have a lot of, they have a lot of attributes that are actually really nice, even though they're very simple and very old and not at all, not at all new.

    33:29

    Right, right, right. But you mentioned earlier this book, Jeremy. Yeah, books are a great example of this. The, the. Despite the Innovation in ebooks, paper books are still, I think, the sort of the way that two thirds of Americans read books. And, and part of that is you are using your senses, you're using your fingers to turn the pages. And then the other thing that that is that sort of the thread that goes through something like a book or the sand timer or the tape recorder is. It's isolated from. From the digital world. So if you're using your timer on your phone, you are also suddenly you're. You're part of this ecosystem where you could get pinged and dinged and, oh, I get to check my email. Social media and. And so new things, or not even new things, but products or goods or services or apps that you use that, that are. That allow you to actually focus on them in sort of a disconnected way are also an example of sort of some of the differences between sort of a new thing that's going to. Sort of. That's just. That's just going to work versus one that's going to, you know, like a book never has a. Has to have a software upgrade. Right, right.

    35:05

    Maybe show people again the name of the book, the Dopamine Nation, is the book we've been talking about by, you know, Lemke, a great, great statement of, of how science reflects this idea that sometimes the seeking of novelty can be. Can be problematic. And, you know, part of what I think we've been talking about in a way, is analog versus digital. You know, that. This idea that. And you. You describe it as tactile or physical, you know, physical touch aspects of it. There's. There's a kind of resurgence of interest in records.

    35:36

    Right.

    35:36

    In vinyl versus CDs and MP3s. And I think in a lot of these realms, you know, physical photographs.

    35:46

    Right.

    35:47

    There's a resurgence of interest in printable. What do they call it, like Polaroid style.

    35:51

    Right, right.

    35:52

    You actually get a physical, tangible artifact of this picture you've just taken of this moment, of this experience, as opposed to digital, which even though it seems very attractive in the sense that you get unlimited number of pictures.

    36:05

    Right, right.

    36:06

    There's two problems with that, at least. One is that actually an unlimited number of pictures in a way devalues the pictures that you actually have.

    36:12

    Right.

    36:12

    Because then you have an unlimited number and they just feel less special.

    36:15

    Right.

    36:15

    When you kind of made a choice and took that picture and treasured that picture.

    36:21

    I. I'm. The reason I'm. I'm looking down, Jeremy, is because I'm looking every once in a while, I'll do this to see. All right. How many, how many photos do I have? Because I know it's a lot and if I scroll well and see, here's a good example, I can't even seem to find it on your phone. Right. It's in the tens of thousands, I'll tell you that.

    36:41

    Yeah, I passed 50,000. I know that because Apple used to have this thing where they were going to cut off one of your types of albums if it exceeded 50,000. So I was conscious of that.

    36:52

    I think I'm around there, which again, and I want to make this clear, I use my iPhone camera all the time and I'm able to capture really amazing moments and there's a real usefulness. But, but there is. I also do carry around little Polaroids of my kids in my wallet. And so the idea here isn't one is better than the other and we have to sort of make that call. But you can, once you start to think about some of the differences between these different types of products, whether it's analog and digital or whether it's just a new thing versus a new thing, another new thing, and whether or not it's going to be something that you, you should, should acquire.

    37:36

    One other example I have here in my office. This is a camera that my grandfather gave me. He taught me how to take pictures with it long time ago. This is an old Minolta, right. With a, you know, the film goes in the back and you know, old fashioned batteries go in there and you know, you click the button to take the picture. You, you wind it and there was something very satisfying about the picture physical.

    38:00

    Right.

    38:01

    And the knowledge that the film is advancing and the process of going through the stages. Right. Of envisioning that picture, choosing that moment with your eye, like using your own old fashioned, you know, eye to decide, you know, to see. Right. As opposed to a digital.

    38:17

    Right, Right, right.

    38:19

    Physically choosing that moment, making that decision, pressing the button, choosing the mode. Obviously you know, more manually than you do now, let's say capturing that moment and then having that period of waiting.

    38:30

    Right, right.

    38:32

    Did that come out? And obviously to your point, what's this,

    38:34

    what's this waiting thing that you're referring to? Is that something that exists? I've never heard of that you have to wait for things.

    38:40

    Yeah, so, so that was also like not just a positive, like I don't want to, I don't want to sugarcoat, you know, I'm certainly not someone who's gonna get a long. For the days where we only had that kind of photography. But. But there, There is something special about that period of uncertainty or that period of waiting and finding out whether it's going to come out and that. And then the excitement of actually getting that picture when it does turn out is really special. And I think we lose some of the lows. In other words, we don't miss the moment as much, but we also miss some of the highs of like, wow, remember that moment. I finally am seeing this picture like a couple weeks later and. Or a couple months or a couple years later, right. And it feels so special because I don't have 500 of these moments, right? I have three or five of these. And isn't it special? And I can share this with a friend and I can keep it and save, savor this tangible artifact that I can physically touch and look at and be in presence with, unlike the digital pictures that are just going to sort of feel like they exist somewhere in the ether.

    39:47

    Yeah. You made me think of another way to sort of assess new things, Jeremy, that I write about in Saying no to new, which is the intrinsic value of things. And so you just talked about the camera that your grandfather's. So that thing is not just a piece of technology that you can use to sort of complete a task. It has some meaning to you. And we can look at things today and make the most sort of a similar assessment and not just material goods. I know people who do like to get the latest iPhone because they really do love photography and they really find value in the improved cameras which have gotten just extraordinary. You know, the improvements on them have been extraordinary. And so. And, and you can get the same, you know, in. In wonder Tools. Jeremy, you write about this all the time, and you know that, that you find something really sort of. You do have sort of feel joy from something or, you know, you have apps that you. That you use that have. Have made your life better and you appreciate those. And so we can apply this kind of test to all kinds of different new things, which is like looking at it and really thinking about this is something that I really enjoy. And the trick here is not to say we don't want to slip into clutter, right? Where we're like, I never want to get rid of this because I remember I used this five years ago. That's not what I'm talking about here, because that can be a very slippery slope. But it's in my mind, it's about replacing things, right? So I have a coffee maker that my wife has been pushing me to get rid of. It and like, upgrade it. But I like my coffee maker. You know, it works for me. It does the. It does the trick. I wake up, program it, I wake up and the coffee's brewing. So when you're in those moments where like, oh, should I upgrade it? Should I replace it? Before thinking too much about the new thing, really look at the old thing and really think about whether it is something that needs to be replaced or, you know, is it providing a service to you or do you have some real memories tied to it?

    42:16

    I want to also play a little bit of a devil's advocate, although I know, I think we probably agree on this to some extent about the things that are new, that have great value to me that I wouldn't want to say no to. I just want to mention a few. Maybe you have a few also share examples. One is Seek, which is this app, if people don't know, that allows you to identify plants or animals if you're out and about. And you want to learn about nature. Right. Merlin is another version I was going to mention.

    42:43

    Merlin, yeah.

    42:44

    Merlin is for birds, right? You can basically record the audio of a bird.

    42:49

    It's an incredible app. If you've never used it, completely free.

    42:52

    Both of these are completely free. Seek and Merlin. Seek allows you to take a little picture or basically point your phone at anything in nature, almost anything, and it will tell you this is the such and such kind of tree or such and such kind of animal or bird. And Merlin, you just press record, essentially, and as you're listening, it will show you on your screen what bird it is. And then you can record that and listen back to those or compare its bird call to other birds. And to me, those are both things where completely novel to me. When I first started using them, basically during the pandemic, right, when I realized how ignorant I was about birds and nature and so much of what I was seeing walking around. And that novelty wasn't just novelty, it was really teaching me. It was. I was learning something, I was enjoying something, I was sharing something, in some cases with my family members.

    43:39

    And

    43:41

    as a result, and maybe this goes to your point, it's stuck, right? These are things I still use, not all the time, not every day, because I'm in a urban jungle. We're next to you, right next door to you here at cuny. We're next door to the New York Times. And so I'm not using them all the time, but I'm using them regularly enough that they feel like they're integrated into my life. And so those are examples to me of and so many other apps. Right. Granola is another one, new to me relatively the last couple years. For those who don't know, granola allows you to essentially, you know, transcribe meetings, summarize meetings that you're in, and phone calls and zooms. And for someone, anyone who has occasional memory lapses and can't remember what you talked about or what you concluded in a meeting periodically, if you're in a lot of those, it's been hugely huge, hugely useful. Like when I think back to the time of meetings before these kinds of tools, you know, I would not want to go back to that. So that novelty, those are some examples of novelty to me where I want to say yes to the new in those cases and in many others. I'm curious what you would say yes to in terms of the new.

    44:45

    Right. Well, yeah, I was going to mention Merlin. It was on my list because I had a very similar experience and it is one of those new things that you can bring and combine it with sort of a social experience. I would take my kids out to Prospect park, get out of the urban jungle for a little bit and use this app to listen to the birds and learn about birds. And it really sort of forces you to, to be in nature and train your attention on the nature around you. I, as I mentioned at the beginning of this, I'm a big fan of new tools that help with productivity. In my job, we use a lot of automation between Google Sheets and Google Docs and the sort of, the new features that, that Google releases in the Google Workspace have been phenomenal and have been, and have been an example of something that, that is actually really serving a purpose and really serving, you know, saving some time and, and, and those types of new things. I think that, that, that you can sort of integrate into your work in a way that don't require a lot of setup but can actually at the end of the day help you are the kinds of new things that I really appreciate and that sort of work in the background and don't require a steep learning curve or any kind of maintenance.

    46:26

    I'm curious about the COVID When new books come out these days, cover is often such a crucial part of determining whether you're going to get people's attention. Speaking of what's new, people are going to look at the bookstore, if they're passing by and say, hey, that, that's, that's interesting. What I think it's a phenomenal cover because it's so simple and yet says a lot and grabs attention while also making a substantive point that's meaningful and a little bit surprising. What was the thinking behind it? What were other options you considered if you're open to sharing?

    46:59

    Well, first off, I got. I have to give kudos and credit to the design team at Balance, my publisher. Yeah, the, the idea behind this cover is that it should stop you in your tracks a little bit. And because it, yes, it is simple, but it is counter to what we're used to seeing today. So the first thing is the title saying no to new. Like I said earlier, that's not what we're supposed to be thinking, Right. New is supposed to be better. And, and we're supposed to say yes to new. That's. Not only is that sort of our evolutionary instinct, but that's the way that marketers and advertisers and tech companies want us to think is they want to sort of tap into that hedonic treadmill that you mentioned earlier, Jeremy. So that after the excitement of the thing that we have now wears off, after I get sort of, you know, I toss this mug warmer thingy into a closet, I'm now ready for the next new thing. And so, so businesses want me to be thinking new is going to equal better. Right. So that's the first thing is it stops you in your tracks because it's really diff. Different encounter to what we've been trained to believe. And then the phone was. Is obviously very intentional choice because so many of us, when we think about phones, this is the phone, right? And I see I got a little bubble came up the, the, the sort of rotary phone as a symbol of something that is so opposite of the way that we use phones or think about phones today, which are seamless. We bring them with us everywhere we go. They're pinging us and dinging us at all times of the day. We're looking at them. Whereas this whole thing, which, by the way, you know, if is I, you know, had to explain to my kids how one of these things worked. The fact that you have to, you know, put your finger on it and turn it, it requires effort and thinking is so opposite of the way that so much of what today works, how things work today. And of course opposite of the phones that we use. And so they cover as sort of a trick to get us to say, wait a minute, this isn't right as a way into a conversation. Not that all new things are bad or we should say no to all new things, but yes, this is a thought that we can have, we can say no to new. And guess what? Sometimes, and oftentimes, new isn't better. Sometimes it is. But once you start to have that conversation, then you're in it and then you're, you're, that's the purpose of the book is, is, is to actually bring some of that thinking and bring some of the, that sort of intentional decision making back in. Because we've gotten to this point, I, I, I write about in the book a concept I'm calling the new thing gap, which is, you know, just a, a few decades ago, the time and distance between seeing a new thing and acquiring a new thing was maybe days and miles, right? So you see an ad for a new pair of sneakers on tv, it's going to require some real work, time to think, and then distance to go get the sneakers. Right? So that's the new thing gap, Right. And in the 90s, let's say it was like this. Well, now that new thing gap has gone down to basically nothing. And so we can see a new thing and then acquire it instantaneously. And so the idea behind the book and the COVID is really meant to, to help you sort of feel this is you're taking that new thing gap, and you're bringing some of your control back into it. Not removing all of the conveniences that we've come to live with, but bringing some of that thinking and distance back into those decision making processes. To your earlier question about like, alternatives, we looked a lot alternative cover ideas. We looked a lot of technology. Should we go with something that actually looks new or should we go with something that looks old? Do we want the book cover to look shiny and new and to have sort of the, the bells and whistle whistles that you tend to see on a new product, or do we want to go in the opposite direction? So those are sort of the two ideas we were playing with, like sales stickers on it, maybe, or new, you know, stickers that say new or sort of sparkle or in this direction we ended up ultimately going in the, hey, this is different than what we tend to see out in the marketplace.

    52:02

    Right. The simplicity becomes a differentiator and the kind of traditional becomes a differentiator. Comparing it on the node.

    52:08

    Exactly. Yeah, it's very interesting.

    52:09

    Yeah. With AB testing, you know, newsletters, you can see, you know, which, which appeals to people. And I wonder what that a B test would look like for the flashy new cover with lots of new gadgets that you're kind of.

    52:20

    Yeah, yeah, we should, we should a B Test it. That would be fun. And this is in the book, I have a chapter all about sort of bringing others along. It's actually the last chapter of the book, which is to say that we, our own decisions that we make every day sort of have invisible influence over the people around us. So if your friends are constantly buying things on Amazon and constantly looking at new content on their phone and often, you know, sort of cycling through redecorations of their living room and just like, just all in on new anything and everything that's new, you're gonna see that. And, and, and there's a psychological sort of effect that it has on you to say, well, if they're doing that, then I should do that. Or, you know, generally people see other people around them and think that whatever they're doing must be the right thing to do. It. It can go in the opposite direction as well. So once you start to pull back and be more intentional, it does run counter to what you see on social media and out there in the marketplace. And you see a lot of this with DM D influencers who, who will go on social media actually to tell you, like, hold up, like, you actually don't need to, like, fill your closet with, with new clothes.

    53:45

    Yeah. I wanted to add one thing to what you said earlier about the new. You know, in the old days, you'd see a new sneaker ad you mentioned, and, you know, you'd be able to buy it, but you have to expend some, wait some time, and you have to go some distance to get it. The third thing, I think that was different depending on how far back we go, is the idea of credit. Right. So you, you used to have to outlay that money and you have the pain or the decision of, okay, yes, I'm going to spend this number of dollars of my limited supply that's in my wallet or in my bank account at the moment on this new thing. And there's a little friction there versus the credit era.

    54:20

    Right.

    54:21

    Where you essentially feel no sense that I'm spending anything. Right. Especially something like Amazon. It's free shipping. It's pay at some point in the future. And that also changes the equation as well.

    54:34

    That's right. That's right. Even the negotiation you may have with yourself or with a family member about the cost of something has been scrubbed from the new thing, gap. So I write about buy now, pay later, which is now integrated into, you know, every platform you can imagine online in person. And just with a few taps. You don't even have to worry if, even if you don't have the money for it, you can, you can get the new thing. So, yeah, it's removing those frictions, those sort of, that effort, as well as the time and distance between seeing the new thing and acquiring it. And. And the new thing gap is practically closed. And. And that's only going to get even. You know, it's not closed entirely. Right. You still have to, what, pull up Amazon? You know, they say, okay, oh, that's nice. Right.

    55:28

    Your agent starts doing it for you.

    55:29

    Right. So that's what I'm getting to, Jeremy, is that agentic shopping is currently in the works and being tested where you don't even have to make those decisions. An AI agent will buy all the stuff that you need.

    55:44

    That's. Yeah, that's powerful and scary as well. Our last few minutes here. I know a lot of other folks might be curious about the book process itself. So a lot of us have thought at one point or another, writing a book, maybe have done it, maybe haven't. What are two or three lessons? Specifically, from your experience, I think this is your first book.

    56:03

    It is, yeah.

    56:04

    Yeah. What are two or three lessons? Things that surprised you, things that might be counterintuitive that you can reflect on now that you've finished.

    56:10

    Sure, sure. And I'm still learning, by the way, and I've got a lot to learn and have had the benefit of many other authors who have given me advice. So a couple of thoughts. One is the thing that's been the biggest adjustment for me in writing a book is just the timescale of it all. So I've been working on this book for three years, and I think this is somewhat unique to my book, but I think applies elsewhere as well, which is that when you have an idea but it's not going to be published for three and a half years, it sort of changes the way you have to write or that you write. So I'm writing a book about. I've written a book about new things. Right. So what is going to be a new thing In September, on September 15, 2026, when my book comes out? I'm thinking about this on September 15, 2024. And the world changes so quickly that I had to really think hard about how I'm describing something I write about AI in the book. AI. You know, next week is going to be different than what it is today. But I think that that isn't unique to my book because I think just the timescale of any creative project like this is. Is is so different than for me personally. But I'm. I'm sure a lot of folks out there that, you know, writing a newsletter, writing a post, writing an article, you know, generally these things take a few days or a few weeks. So thinking about a project that's going to be, you know, over three years, that was a big adjustment for me and how to sort of navigate that creative process, knowing that it's going to be a long process with a lot of ups and downs. And then the other thing that, that I'm still learning but is, was a big sort of change for me is that to be a book author in 2026 means you also have to sort of join the gig economy and basically, like, you are in charge of, you know, speaking of new things. Like, there is so much competition for attention. The marketplace is packed not just with books, but all kinds of entertainment. So you've got a. You're going to have a physical thing, a digital thing, an audiobook. How do you break through that noise? And one of the most useful things that a couple people told me this actually is, you know, that thing where you hear about a book or a TV show and then you hear about it again in the next week. Maybe you hear about it from, you know, you go to the New York Times and you see an article about it, and then. And then. And then you're listening to a podcast and they're talking about it, and then a friend says, hey, I heard something about the thing, and then suddenly it's everywhere. And then the next thing you know, you're watching the Netflix show or you're buying the book. That type of repetition is really important and is actually a theme in my book, which is that something that's truly novel, we are attracted to, but we also need some familiarity to get comfortable with it. And so when you see an idea like a new book or a new TV show or new movie a few different times, that repetition creates familiarity and suddenly start to feel like, oh, okay, I feel like I know this a little bit, but it's also new, and it starts to balance out the equation a little bit. So that was a really interesting thing in terms of marketing, that if you're interested in writing a book, you really have to think about, like, that experience of who is your audience and what are the ways you're going to sort of get in front of them in a lot of different aspects of their life in a world where people are just bombarded with information. And we're living in the attention economy where, you know, it's sort of the wild wild West.

    1:00:15

    That's very, very interesting. That repetition idea reminds me of something at business school that professors used to talk about which is this idea that seven. You have people have to hear a message seven times, right?

    1:00:24

    Yeah. Or it cuts through.

    1:00:25

    Typically they're talking about advertising, but I'm imagining it's true with a new book like yours. So with that in mind, hopefully people will hear more and more about your book between now and September. It's called Saying no to New. Eric at this of the New York Times. Thanks so much for the conversation. I really appreciate it. It was really a pleasure thinking about this in new ways and as someone who loves new stuff, I'm definitely eager to continue thinking about this ways in which to move beyond the new and to explore the old. As we've been talking about today, any final thoughts you want to. Want to share? Anything you want to add before we, before we left?

    1:01:07

    Well, I hope, I hope you take a look at the book. It's available for pre order now, comes out September 15th. Available in all the normal places where you can buy books. I am also on substack as you as you know and I'll be giving sort of updates along the way.

    1:01:24

    And the name of your substack, it's

    1:01:26

    Eric at this is my name Eric at this is my substack. Um and you can look there for behind the scenes little tidbits I'm starting to, to, to drip out. But also pre order bonuses and some fun stuff planned including tying it back into wonder tools and new things. A decision making tool that you'll be able to pull up on your phone and say okay, I'm thinking of buying this, you know, this new AI recorder and it will actually take you through the same no to new methods to help you along the way. So that will be one of the sort of pre sale bonuses that I'll be offering. So I encourage you to subscribe and I'll be keeping you updated there.

    1:02:13

    Nice. Thanks so much Eric and thanks everyone for joining us this morning.

    1:02:17

    Yeah, thanks Jeremy. Thanks everyone.

    1:02:18

    Bye bye bye.

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