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    Wonder Tools
    Episode‱May 8, 2026‱1h 4m

    What I Learned About Time đŸ•°ïž

    I love Laura Vanderkam’s books about how to make the most of time. It’s never about stuffing more into our days. It’s not about productivity. It’s about savoring and being creatively thoughtful about what we choose to do. Her books 168 Hours and Tranquility by Tuesday changed how I think about my own weeks. For example, her argument for “effortful before effortless,” nudged me to spend more of my discretionary time on my hobbies. Her latest book, Big Time, new this week, makes the case for time abundance: we have more time than we think, and there are surprising ways we can savor it. In our live conversation May 7, we talked about why weeks matter more than days, how to make work more satisfying with small changes, and why your weekday evenings may hold more free time than you realize. đŸ“ș Watch the full conversation above, and read highlights below. My Favorite Ideas from Our Conversation 💡 1. Your Life Is a Circus. Be the Ringmaster. đŸŽȘ When people say “my life is a circus,” they mean chaos. Laura says that’s a slander against circuses. A real circus is a super-organized performance. Nobody gets shot out of a cannon at the wrong time. She thinks of life as a well-orchestrated three-ring circus: career, relationships, and self. You’re the ringmaster. Each ring may have a bigger or smaller act at any given moment. A good circus is managed for delight. You want to run a show you’d actually want to watch. The circus also needs a safety net. Complex lives require backup plans so that complexity doesn’t descend into chaos. 2. Think in Weeks, Not Days ⏳ There are 168 hours in a week. That number matters more than 24. If you work 40 hours and sleep 56, you still have 72 hours for other things. That’s not all free time. But we have much more discretionary time than we often realize. Laura says the time-crunch feeling often results from looking narrowly at today. Zoom out to the week and you’ll often see more room. 3. Track Your Time Simply 📊 Laura tracks her time on a basic Excel spreadsheet. Half-hour blocks. Monday through Sunday. She checks in three times a day and jots down what she did since the last check-in. She doesn’t make pie charts. She uses plain language: “Email.” “Cooking.” “Reading.” “Driving.” Whatever you’d casually tell a friend if they asked what you were doing right now. At the end of each week, there’s room to reflect. What were the highlights? What did you enjoy most? What was most memorable this week? What was frustrating? She then archives the log and opens a new one. Laura has been doing this long enough that she can now pull up an old log from the same week in a prior year. She recently compared this past April with April 2020. She now has a kind of personal time capsule. (My wife and daughters use Gretchen Rubin’s 5-Year One-Sentence Journal for a related time capsule). Tip: You can use Laura’s simple, free time-tracking spreadsheet. If spreadsheets feel like too much work, try Toggl. I use Rize, which automatically categorizes my time so I don’t have to remember to log. 4. Enjoy Work More with 3 Small Experiments 🔧 Laura tested three tactics with hundreds of people over three weeks. Each tactic helped people feel more satisfied with their work to a statistically significant degree. The approaches don’t require that you change your job. They also don’t depend on you having a ton of autonomy. So they’re designed to work for all sorts of roles. * Spend one more hour per week on the work you like best. Every job has tasks you prefer. Even a short conversation with a manager can shift the balance toward more of those. (This reminds me of “job crafting,” a tactic I once wrote about for Time Magazine). * Spend 15 more minutes per week at work with someone you like. Friends at work are people you’d willingly spend time with outside the office. Social time at work matters more than we may realize. * Take two intentional breaks per day. Everyone takes breaks. Most are unplanned. When you decide in advance how you’ll spend a break, you can choose something rejuvenating rather than defaulting to scrolling or other screen time. One participant in Laura’s study told her: “I thought about leaving my job. I may still do that. But now I see ways to make work better whether I quit or not.” 5. Reclaim Your Golden Hours ✹ Golden hours are what Laura calls the stretch of weekday time after work and before bed. For most people, that’s roughly 6 p.m. to 11 p.m. Five hours. Laura’s challenge: set one golden hour intention each day. Thirty minutes of something you chose and genuinely enjoy. Not work. Not housework. It might be: reading. A puzzle. A walk. A board game. Playing music. Even watching a movie with a loved one, if you chose that. The point is awareness, and intention. Once you claim 30 minutes of chosen leisure, you’re less likely to tell yourself the story that you have no free time. Laura also noted that Golden Hours is the title of her next book. Given that this book just came out, I’m impressed that she’s already ready for the next one. 6. Try Effortful Fun Before Effortless Fun 🎯 This was the most memorable and useful tactic I learned from Laura’s previous book. It pops up again in this one. Here’s the idea: when your schedule allows for a bit of leisure time, start with at least a few minutes of something that takes effort, before you default to screens or other mindless activity. Read three pages of a book before opening Instagram. Start drawing or playing an instrument (my choice) before picking up your phone. One of two things will happen. You may get absorbed in the book and keep going. Or you might switch to Instagram anyway, but at least you’ve enjoyed a few minutes of something you care about first. Laura likes taking on big, year-long projects, like listening to all of Bach or Beethoven, or reading all of Jane Austen or Shakespeare, all of which she’s done in years past. Those all require just 10 pages a day or listening to one piece. If you sprinkle your days with effortful moments, you’ll get deep into projects you care about over the course of a year. If not, you’ll have a year’s worth of scrolling or other mindless diversion that may not add up to something memorable. Laura’s insight: effortful fun is especially enjoyable and valuable once you clear the initial hurdle of getting started. But when you start with effortless fun, it’s easy to get sucked in and hard to switch to something effortful with more friction. 7. Go Outside After Dinner 🌿 Laura’s family uses the acronym TOAD: Time Outside After Dinner. Once daylight extends past dinner, go outside. Walk. Play. Just be out there. It breaks the default drift toward screens during the post-dinner hours. 8. Practice Active Patience đŸŒ± Some things just take time. Laura talked about how her books reveal themselves slowly as she writes them. She may start with a detailed outline, but the nuances within each chapter emerge gradually. A piece of music becomes part of you only after many hours of practice. I’ve spent years on some of my favorite violin pieces; I often find new wrinkles, like dynamics or articulation marks I hadn’t paid much attention to, even after I’ve spent hundreds of hours looking at the music. After 11 years of tracking, Laura knows exactly what fits in 168 hours. Her weekly priority lists are short and realistic. If something is on the list, she’ll do it. If not, she’ll push it to a future week. That precision eliminates guilt. She doesn’t assign herself things she won’t actually do. And she doesn’t feel bad about things she deliberately chose not to do this week. If you occasionally feel guilty about not doing enough, as I do, check out I Didn’t Do The Thing Today: Letting Go of Productivity Guilt, by Madeleine Dore. It’s a brilliant take. 9. Leave Room to Say Yes đŸšȘ Most productivity advice is about saying no. Laura flips that. Almost all new opportunities, relationships, and breakthroughs come from saying yes to something you’re not entirely sure about. The reason to clear your schedule isn’t just to have less going on. It’s to create the mental space to say yes when something unexpected appears. If you feel completely swamped, you might not even consider new possibilities. Managing mental load isn’t just about getting things done. It’s about staying open to what could come next, and allowing for serendipity. It’s about being open to what Laura calls little bets, giving time to something new that might end up being terrific. Tip: In his book, Flourish, Daniel Coyle describes this approach as opening yellow doors. They’re yellow (like a yellow traffic light) because they aren’t a clear GO. You’re not sure where they’ll lead. You may instinctively resist them in favor of more obvious green doors. Coyle points out, as Laura does, that these yellow doors can lead you to surprising places you wouldn’t otherwise go. 10. This is Probably Not Your Last Day đŸŸ “Live every day as if it’s your last” sounds inspiring. But it’s not practical for consistently making real decisions about how we spend our time. If everything was about living for the moment, you wouldn’t save money, learn a new language, or practice cello. Planning would seem futile or foolish. Laura prefers a different frame: ”Someday we will die. But on all the other days, we will not.” She attributes it to a Snoopy cartoon. Most days are not the last day we’ll be alive. It’s worth investing in things that pay off later. Build skills. Start the long project. The Social Security Administration publishes actuarial tables if you want reassurance about your own life expectancy. For most ages, your odds of making it to next year are excellent. That’s true whether you’re in your forties, like Laura, or 92. Interesting fact: Only when you’re 105 do your odds of dying within a year start to exceed 50%, according to those tables. 11. Make Fewer Decisions. Rely on Presets 🍝 Laura’s family has a routine meal schedule. Pasta on Mondays. Fajitas on Tuesdays. Breakfast for dinner on Thursdays. (They love bacon). Weekends are for trying something new. That approach extends beyond food. Sticking to formulas frees up mental energy for things where decisions are crucial. You’re not being boring. You’re being strategic about where your decision-making efforts go. Jeff Bezos and other visionary leaders talk about separating reversible small decisions from impactful ones that can’t be reversed. If you don’t like one lunch, you’ve got another one coming. If you fire someone or leave a partnership, you may not get an easy redo. Laura’s Simple Toolkit 🧰 Laura doesn’t focus much on tech. Here are a few tools she relies on. * Microsoft Excel for time tracking. Basic spreadsheets, half-hour blocks, simple categories. * iPhone Notes App works well for scanning. Open a note, press the paperclip icon, then scan a permission slip, agreement doc, or some other form straight to PDF. You don’t need a separate scanner. * Toggl for time tracking if you prefer an app over a spreadsheet. The free version works well. It works on your computer or laptop, and integrates with many other apps. I use and recommend a different app called Rize. * Two laptops. She started using two screens by accident when an old laptop couldn’t run Zoom. Now she writes on one and references notes on the other. * A digital recorder for her brief daily podcast called Before Breakfast. She batches episodes ahead of time and sends audio files to her production team. On AI ✍ Laura loves both writing and puzzling. She says using AI for writing would be like paying a robot to do a puzzle for her. She has used it for brainstorming and research. She once asked for a list of productivity newsletters. About half the results were ones she already knew. Half of the rest turned out not to exist. But some of the results were useful discoveries. She’s open to the idea of feeding time logs into AI for pattern recognition. Her take: it’s a bit like a tarot reading. If you agree with the AI’s categorization or summarization, you’ll think the results are great. If you don’t like the AI’s assessment, you’ll assume it malfunctioned. For my own takes on AI, check out my AI-related posts. Laura’s Resources 🎁 * Free time-tracking spreadsheet: lauravanderkam.com/manage-your-time * Before Breakfast Laura’s daily micro podcast with short weekday tips. I’ve listened to it for years. I love that each episode is just a few minutes long (though I tend to skip over the lengthy opening ads). She’s been publishing episodes daily since early 2019. * Best of Both Worlds Laura cohosts this podcast with Dr. Sarah Hart-Unger, focusing on real-world issues that arise when balancing work and family. (Laura has five kids, aged six to 18, so she speaks from experience). * Big Time Her excellent new book on time abundance. * Tranquility by Tuesday andhttps://lauravanderkam.com/books/168-hours/168 Hours Two of Laura’s best prior books, both worth reading, both full of specific, practical, non-intuitive ideas that I’ve found useful. Thank you to my brother Ben Caplan, MD, Holly, and many others for tuning into my live video chat with Laura. And thanks for reading all the way down to this note. Leave a comment with your own thought on time. I’d love your input. 👆 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wondertools.substack.com/subscribe

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    Transcript

    0:01

    I think we're live. This is always a slow start. Great. There we are. I'm super excited to be here with you, Lara Vanderkam, someone I've read for years and years. So it's exciting to be here live with you in the moment. And of course, now my computer seems to be potentially freezing.

    0:22

    There you are again. I'm like, well, I'm excited to be talking to you, if I can see you. That would be great.

    0:27

    There we go. Okay, great. So delighted to be here with you. I have been a devoted reader for years and years. The thing I love about your books, Lara, is that they help with what I think is so important in every day of our lives, which is choosing what we do, thinking about our time more thoughtfully, making the most of each of our days, not by rushing around and being more productive, necessarily, but just by being more intentional. That's what I think. A lot of what I take away from your books comes down to is that intentionality. And the new book, if people don't know, is called Big Time. It is about time abundance. It's about not being necessarily stressed about time or stuffing more in, as we sometimes think about productivity, books being, but rather about actually reveling in time and restoring our sense of peace and tranquility in a way with. With the time that we're allotted. I'm Jeremy Kaplan, by the way. I write the Wonder Tools newsletter. If someone's new to this, this podcast or this video or this newsletter. And yeah, Laura, maybe just add to a little bit about your. Your bio. You're a mom of five, which I think is incredible. As a child of six, a mom who had six kids. I know that that's a big, A big, big, big, huge responsibility while you're. You're writing these seven or eight books at this point. So, yeah, fill in the gap in terms of who you are.

    1:55

    Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you so much for having me, Jeremy. I'm thrilled to be here. I write books about time management and productivity. I also speak on that topic. I have two podcasts related to it. One is called Before Breakfast, which generally features short weekday morning tips on how to take your day from great to awesome. And I have the occasional interview episode as well. I also co host a podcast called Best of Both Worlds with my friend Sarah Hart Unger. She is a practicing physician mom of three. We talk about the intersection of work and family from the perspective of people who truly love both. I think it is such a gift to do work out in the wider world that is making a difference. And then also to be raising a happy, thriving family. To that end, Yes, I have five kids. My oldest is 18. He just finished his freshman year of college, so that was pretty exciting. And then the others are 16, 14, 11 and 6. So, yes, I have a freshman in college and a kindergartner makes for quite the mix, quite the circus here at this house. But I am truly enjoying it. I do a few other things. I sing in a choir. Actually I sing in two choirs right now, but that's a little ridiculous and, you know, generally trying to make the most of my time. So I'm hoping that the tips we can share today and the topics we talk about will be helpful for people as we're trying to figure out how to spend our hours in ways that are meaningful and enjoyable for ourselves and the people we care about.

    3:33

    Thanks, Lara. That's great. I love also how you are a kind of Renaissance person in the sense that you're not just working, you're not just parenting. You also do have these other pursuits and interests. I want to ask you along the way about these big projects that you do. Listening to all the works of Bach, all the works of Beethoven, reading all of Jane Austen, reading all of Shakespeare, reading War and Peace, all these really exciting year long projects. Before we get to that though, you mentioned the circus and that's one of the chapters in this new book. Big Time addresses this idea of how do we manage this three ring circus. Could you talk a little bit about that? How we juggle all of these different things?

    4:05

    Yeah. So I am really drawn to this metaphor of life being a circus. And when people say to you like, oh Tammy, my life is a circus, what they mean is that it's chaotic. But that is really a slander against circuses because a circus is not chaotic at all. A circus is very complex. But a circus is about the most organized thing you will ever see. Right. Like nobody is getting shot out of a cannon at the wrong time. So I think we should actually aspire to think of our lives as a circus. And the more complex your life is, the more important it is to view yourself as the ringmaster of this circus. And we can even extend the metaphor to think about it being a three ring circus. I like to think of my life in terms of career. So obviously professional stuff that I'm managing, relationships. So that would be family, friends, some community stuff as well. And then self. So the things I need to do for my own physical, mental, spiritual, emotional health. Right. So that's the third ring. And you Know, different rings have bigger acts or smaller acts going on in them at any given moment. But we can't. We're not gonna have a circus where there's nothing going on in two of the three rings or anything like that. So I like to think of all three rings and what is going on in all three at all times. Thinking about, you know, the order, the sequence, the logistics. We can extend the metaphor further and talk about how in a circus performance, people are often performing over a net. Right. And if we have a complex life, we need to think about how we can have backup plans and what we'll do if things go wrong so that the complexity does not descend into chaos. And finally, you know, a circus is managed for delight. Nobody wants to watch a circus where everyone's just kind of trudging through their acts like, you want to make it look like fun. And so, as part of being the ringmaster of my circus, I am trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm really looking forward to. Right. That this is a circus I actually want to be watching. And the more I keep that metaphor in mind, the more I feel, like, excited about having a big, busy, complex life, as opposed to feeling like it's something I need to be frightened of, wary of trying to figure out ways to scale it back.

    6:34

    Yeah. One of the things I like about that is changing the rhetoric and changing the narrative. Instead of feeling like we're stressed, there's a kind of a vibe that people like to share that I'm so stressed, my schedule's so packed, I'm overwhelmed. And almost as a badge of honor.

    6:45

    Right.

    6:46

    Whereas you're changing that perception a little bit that people have of their own experience and shifting from thinking about the race and the rat race to thinking about time in a little bit more expansive way. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to that awareness? I mean, you're someone who's packed a lot into your days for a long time. Right. How did you kind of shift your mindset to think more expansively about time?

    7:13

    Well, one of the best things I ever started doing is tracking my time. And many years ago, when I first had this revelation that there are 168 hours in a week. Right. And that viewing your life in terms of weeks is generally a better idea than looking at life in terms of days. Because I think often when people are feeling crunched and harried, it's because they're looking at life only on, say, Thursday. Right. And life is more than just this Thursday. There's a lot more time than just this Thursday. And maybe all the things you want to do in life do not fit into an average Thursday. I mean, people are like, well, Laura, you know, there aren't enough hours in the day to get to everything I want to get to. And I totally believe that. But we don't live our lives just in any individual day. We can generally view time more broadly. And the funny thing about this, to me. So my first time management book was called 168 Hours. And to this day, I believe if you Google it, it's one of the first things that comes up, which seems so strange. Cause if you googled 24 hours, you would never get an individual author, right? So why is it that we don't think of 168 hours? People say 24, 7 and they don't multiply it through. Like there are 168 hours in a week. And that is a number that I think we should keep in mind partly because it shows us how much space there is. Anyone who is working a full time job. So let's say 40 hours a week and is sleeping eight hours a night. So that is 56 hours per week, has 72 hours for other things. Now that's obviously not all free time. People are commuting, people are doing housework, they're caring for family members, they're taking care of their own physical bodies. But it is still a lot of space. And yet, you know, if you think about having a full time job, you feel like that's the full amount of my time. So just looking at 168 hours helps us see this expansiveness. And so then once I started realizing that life was 168 hours or even bigger periods of time, then I started tracking it in terms of 168 hours. Like, what have I done over the past 168 hours as I'm writing it, keeping track of my time. And that was so helpful for seeing how much can fit in a week and still have space for other things, still have downtime. I mean, these days I can still see this as I'm tracking a week. Like last weekend was somewhat of definitely the circus in terms of the sheer volume of things that was going on at my household. And yet there was still downtime. Like I finished a thousand piece puzzle. I read at least an hour in a new book. Like there was downtime even within all this other stuff that was going on. And so I think having that broader perspective really helps us see that one

    10:05

    of the Sections of the book I really appreciated and I think other people will appreciate of the new book. And again, if you're just joining, we're talking about time and Lara's new book, Big Time is this section where you're talking about work. Right. A lot of people might accept your idea that, you know, during your free time and the golden hours, which we can talk about afterwards, about, you know, after work, you have a little bit more flexibility. But a lot of people might feel like they're very harried at work and they, you know, may or may not like the day to day activities they're doing. You had people try three different things, which I thought was really interesting. And I also like, by the way, the idea that you actually aren't just talking out from your head like based on your experience, because you point out everyone has very, very different work experiences. But actually you're getting 200 and what was it, 269 people or something like that to fill these studies and sort of test these tactics, which I thought was great. And the three tactics, as I remember them, and you can correct me, one of them is essentially a little bit more social time, like being with other humans that you like or that you work with and want to get to know, doing a little bit more of the work you like. There's this concept of job crafting which some people may know, which is like doing more of the work you actually enjoy. And then the third one which is like these mini breaks, right. Like being intentional in, like zoning out or doing mindfulness or going for a walk or other things. Right. So these three things and then you had people test them out. Right. So maybe you could share a little bit about what you found from doing this study. Maybe something that surprised you and why you think those three tactics in particular are effective.

    11:31

    Yeah, So I mean, I don't want anyone to wish time away because all time is valuable. And you know, we're not all massively in love with our jobs. I think it's great when people are. But I understand that people work in a variety of ways. And in many cases, you know, work is something we're doing because we need to make a living, we need to pay the bills. But that said, we don't need to be just, you know, hoping to be on the other side of the next eight hours. There are definitely things we can do during the daily experience of work to make work better, even if you don't have a ton of control over your actual job itself. Right. And I think that's an Important point, because a lot of productivity and time management literature assumes that people are in a corporate environment, right? And so it's all talking about managing meetings and emails. And that is definitely important. If you're in a corporate environment, you're managing meetings or emails, or else it assumes sort of an entrepreneurial environment where you have a lot of control over your time. And yet there are many people who don't work that way. So, like, how does productivity advice or workplace advice, you know, matter for somebody who's like a construction site supervisor or, you know, managing a fast casual restaurant or is got a, you know, working in retail or anything like that? There's all sorts of jobs that don't fit this sort of mold of productivity books. So I want to say, well, what strategies can I come up with that can be broadly applicable and that could help people in most lines of work spend their working hours better? And if you look at self determination theory, there's a couple of things that tend to in general make people happier as, as they are doing anything. And one is having some, you know, autonomy and a sense of competence over, over what they're doing. One is, well, those are separate. But anyway, like competence, the sort of engagement with others, like connectedness and belonging and then autonomy over, over your time. And so how could we get at this? Well, so the competence idea is, could you spend one more hour per week on the work you like best? So within any job, there are some tasks we like more, there are some tasks we like less. In many cases, we have at least some control about spending slightly more time on the favorite tasks and slightly less on the others. If you have control over your time at work, you could obviously just do this on your own, but you can also, you know, speak to a supervisor. Like many managers are at least open to the idea of people spending more time on the work that they truly want to be doing versus the stuff they like less. They're not gonna automatically do it. But, you know, if you have a conversation, you might be able to scale it up a little bit. Could you spend 15 more minutes per week even with somebody you like at work? So deepening a relationship with a colleague, like, even if you like nothing about your job, hopefully you like some of the people who are there. And having friends at work is really awesome because friends are people you would be willing to spend time with outside of work. So how much more exciting if you can spend time with them while you're on the clock. And then as you mentioned, the breaks, like taking two intentional breaks per Day. Everybody takes breaks in some way, shape or form, but sometimes they are unintentional. Like we don't think about how we're gonna spend them, and so we don't spend them in maximally rejuvenating ways. But if you think ahead of time about how you will spend your breaks, you are able to choose kind of mini vacations and exercise these bits of autonomy in your schedule. So, you know, I had people try these out over the course of three weeks. Their, their satisfaction with their work days rose to a statistically significant degree. I had people telling me things like, you know, I thought about leaving my job before this. I may still do that at some point, but now I am seeing that there are all sorts of ways that I can make work better, whether I quit or not.

    15:37

    That's great. Somebody was asking about the tracking and I wonder about this. You've been very diligent about that since 2015, I think. And a lot of people I've talked to have found it difficult to keep tracking. Right. They fall off the wagon. They're not sure what to write, they're not sure what categories to use, and they may just not know how to do that. Well, I know you've, you've suggested basically doing it in three, I think three times a day. Right. Reflecting on what you've done and that. Wonder if you have other tips on making it more useful for people or making more practical for people or on helping people. Include some reflection with that because I think that might also be something that people may resist is doing it just for the sake of having the numbers as opposed to reflecting on it.

    16:24

    Yeah. So there's, there's lots of ways you can track your time. I track my time on weekly spreadsheets that have half hour blocks. So goes Monday to Sunday off along the top and then half hour blocks down the left hand side, 5am to 4:30am to sort of reflect what I think of as a day. Right. So it actually doesn't go midnight to midnight because that's not how I live my days. And I'm guessing it's not how you live your days either. Think about when I wake up in the morning and then going through to when I go to bed. But anyway, like it's just Excel. Like it is nothing fancy. If anyone watching this wants to get one of the kind that I use, you could go to my website, it's lauravandercam.com and then slash, manage your time. Okay. But again, you could make your own very easily because it's just Excel, but I check in three times a day, write down what I have done since the last time I checked in. I am not trying to make really cool pie charts. So I will go ahead and say that I am not using almost any of the functionality that Excel actually has to do this because I realized that I didn't care so much about the categories being, like, mutually exclusive and comprehensively exhaustive to make a cool pie chart. I was more sort of interested in the bigger categories. And so I will just put stuff like work, but sometimes if I'm trying to drill down on it, I'll say what I was actually doing during a work block, sleep, kids, et cetera. Like, that's sort of the amorphous kid time driving. You know, if I'm running, you know, put that in, reading all those you could think of time, pretty broadly, just use whatever words you would use it to describe to a friend. So if you ask, hey, Laura, what are you doing right now? Just put that on the. Put that on the log. Because again, you don't have to make a cool pie chart. This is just for you. And then at the end of the week, I do try to reflect. You know, even I've been doing this for years, but I archive my old logs every Monday morning and then open a new one. And so I like to reflect on what did I do over the last week. Sometimes I look at, you know, what are. Was my sleep looking sort of regular and about how much sleep I want to get. Did I have any good adventures? Like, what would be my memories from this week? What would the highlights be of this week if I were looking back on this, you know, did I exercise regularly? Did I do any cool things with family members or friends? You know, just general things like that. It's really just for you, but, you know, yeah, if you don't want to use a spreadsheet, there's lots of time tracking apps on the market that people sometimes find helpful if they don't want to use the spreadsheet.

    19:14

    Yeah, you talked about, I think in your previous book, the Tranquility By Tuesday book, you talked about having a big adventure, I think, and one big adventure, one little adventure. Right. And I guess in this moment of reflection at the end of the week when you're switching, you could also savor that a little bit, sort of think back to that in the way that we sometimes do when we see an old photo on our phone.

    19:33

    Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's. It's. Because that is what you will wind up remembering of the week. And I've been doing this long enough that I've actually started pulling up old vlogs. I generally try and pull up one that had the same week cycle. Right. So, like, the week that started April 27, you know, what was that? And like, you know, I guess the last one, it was back in 2020 that. That Monday was the April 27th. So I pulled up 2020 of April 27th. See, what was I doing? What was that week? You know, what do I remember? And.

    20:05

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like Gretchen Rubin said, the five.

    20:09

    The Five Year Journal.

    20:10

    Yeah. Back at the prior. At the prior day. Some other concepts from this book that I think that resonated with me from the new book that people might find interesting in no particular order because they're kind of spread out across the book. One is this idea of active patience. You know, I, for one, will confess to feeling a lot of time guilt. You know, Madeline Doerr's book, I Didn't do the Thing Today really resonated with me because I feel that so often this pressure to not. Not always to just be more productive, but to do as much as I can, even on a weekend I want to enjoy as much as, you know, the city as I can, for example, the time with my kids as I can. And that creates a sense of pressure. And I think. I think what you're getting at toward the end of this book and this active patience is like taking this broader, broader view of time. Right. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you cultivate that sense of active patience and how you avoid the guilt when your days don't go the way you envision them or plan them?

    21:10

    Yeah, I mean, obviously everyone has days that don't go the way they envision or plan them. But I think one of the things that time tracking for so long has helped me figure out is exactly what will fit in a week and what doesn't. And so I almost never assign myself stuff for a week that I'm not gonna do. And it's like, there's this certain sense of reality that comes from seeing very clearly, this is what you do in 168 hours. This is what will not fit in 168 hours. And so that 11 years of practice at means that I'm not putting anything on my priority list for the week that I do not actually intend to do. Now, because of that, the priority lists tend to be relatively short because stuff comes up, as you mentioned, you know, there could be emergencies in both work life, personal Life. And so because of that, they tend to be fairly carefully chosen. Now, if I finish those things, you know, there's a million things the world one could do. You know, always go find other stuff to do. But I find that gets rid of a lot of the guilt. If I know I'm gonna do the stuff on my priority list and it has been very carefully chosen to make sure that it will fit in 168 hours, then as long as I keep doing what I have set out to do, then I don't feel some huge guilt that there's other things I should be doing. Cause I've either decided not to do it or I'm knowing I'm doing it in a future week. Like, that's when I'll assign it for. So, you know, I mean, maybe some people feel like that's a very limited view of life. Like, I should be aiming for the clouds and, you know. Or what is that horrible motivational poster like, aim for the star or Aim for the moon, you'll land on the stars, or something like that? No, I mean, I want to have an exact match between what I set out to do and what I actually do. And I find that gets rid of any guilt I might have. About time. So just throwing that out there as an idea for how one might do that. But the topic of patience is more that some things just take a lot of time. And you can't immediately do all of it, but over time you can. And I've certainly had this feeling with writing books. For instance, like, when you start out, you can't see everything that will be in it. I mean, you can have a detailed outline, but stuff is still gonna come to you over the course of writing it that you will be putting in and adding as you go, or. Jeremy, I know you're a musician. Like, when you're learning a new big piece of music, you don't have all of it at the beginning. Like, it's coming to you over time. And the more time you put into it, the more it becomes a part of you, and the more everything feels like it had to be that way in a way that it wasn't, you know, when you first encountered it. So, you know, a tree. Like, it would be silly to yell at a tree for not being very tall when it's three years old. Like, it just takes the time it takes to get to be, you know, a giant tree. And the same thing with many things in our life. I mean, you know, yes, we can be more efficient, but certain things just Take a lot of time. And if we're willing to give them some time, well, time will pass and eventually we'll be there.

    24:31

    How do you talk to the voice in your head if you have that voice that says, gosh, I should be doing these other things, I could be doing these other things. You know, you do puzzles, right, that. Yeah, a lot of time you listen to the St. Matthew's Passion. It takes a lot of time. Like you're doing these things and you have so many opportunities, right, As a professional, as a writer, as a speaker, as a coach, et cetera. Do you have that voice that says, gosh, there's all these things and I should be or could be doing something else? Or do you silence it? Do you get into flow? Like, how do you handle that?

    24:59

    Yeah, I think I just try not to listen to that as much because it's not helpful. Like, you're either doing it or you're not. I mean, what's the Yoda do or do not? There is no try. So if you're not gonna do it, then there's not a whole lot of point in feeling guilty about not doing it. Now, if you do feel guilty about it, then maybe that's a sign you should do it.

    25:19

    Right?

    25:20

    I mean, if it's something that you truly not just, you know, like sometimes it's because somebody else wants you to do it, you don't really care like that you can kind of, unless that person is very, very valuable to you, like, yeah, you can kind of push that off. But you know, if, if, if you feel like as you're thinking about it, yeah, actually that would be a really good thing to do. Well, maybe you can move things around and put that in and you know that, that sometimes that can be a important voice. From, from that perspective, I want to

    25:50

    get at a few other things you talk about in this new book. One is the toad time, which I like, which also kind of got in into a little bit in the tranquility by Tuesday, in terms of getting outside by at least by 3pm I think you said move by 3pm which is one I've. I really appreciated that, that insight because I'm often inside my office here at the university and it's like a beautiful sunny day here in New York City. So, yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit about that. The idea of getting outside of having that time in the evening, and maybe that also ties into the golden hours, how we make more of our kind of free evening hours that sometimes just

    26:24

    get frittered away yeah, so toad time is an acronym that my family uses for meaning time outside after dinner. And if the double time in that acronym bothers you, you just call it to gather outside after dinner. But the idea is that you go outside after dinner because this is, you know, especially, like, this doesn't work necessarily in February, but, like, once the time change happens in early March, it's like till about 7pm in my part of the world. So if you're, you know, eating dinner, six or so, and you could go outside after dinner for a little bit. And my kids love being outside after dinner. I don't know what it is. I think, you know, other times of the day they're less, you know, excited about it, but it seems somehow special to be outside after dinner. And of course, this is time that people might just naturally be like on their iPads. So it's kind of good to go outside after dinner and have a little bit less screen time. So, yeah, everyone's happier outside, like, including the supervising adult. Even if you don't have kids. Go outside after dinner, go for a walk.

    27:30

    It'll be good for the destination or just a walk for the walk's sake. Like, what do you do on the walk?

    27:34

    Yeah, I mean, well, we. We don't necessarily walk. I mean, we go and play in the yard. I mean, I. I have, you know, the kids were gonna play in the yard, so that's kind of what we do. We're in the suburbs. If you're in the city, like, obviously you could go to a playground. You could go for a family walk. Like, it might be fun to have a destination. Probably you're not gonna go out for ice cream every night, but you could, you know, once a week or so. And that would be a fun destination to do. Um, but yeah, something to. To break up the mon. Dinner, homework, bath, bed, TV for the adults kind of routine that a lot of people fall into. Which brings up the topic of the golden hours, which is gonna be the title of my next book, by the way.

    28:15

    Oh, really?

    28:16

    Yeah. But this Golden Hours is the time after work and before bed on weekday evenings. If you think about your golden years, like retirees are in their golden years. This is time for family or leisure after years of work. So we get a. Any version of this every weekday evening where it's time for family and fun after work is done. And for many people, this is not a small amount of time. Like, I've studied, you know, thousands of schedules, looked at larger time diary studies like the American Time Use Survey, most People are done with work and work related activities by 6pm now, not everyone, I know plenty of people here are not like you can put in the comments if you're not, that's fine, I get it, I get it. Not everyone's life looks the same. But most people are in fact done by 6pm Most Americans are going to bed somewhere between 10 and 11. Like you know, 40% of people are in bed at 10 and like 70% are in bed at 11. So it's in there is where, where the bedtime occurs. But that means we have four to five hours after work and before bed on weekdays. And there are things that have to happen during those times, but generally those things don't take the full five hours. And so I am on a mission to get people to set one golden hour intention each day. So something that isn't work or family, the physical care of family members or housework to do for about 30 minutes in your weekday evenings that you have chosen and that you would genuinely enjoy. So this could be, you know, doing puzzles like I do. It could be playing a musical instrument, it could be going for a family walk, it could be playing a board game, it could be read, it could be screen time if it is chosen intentionally. Like, you know, you and your spouse, you have young kids, you get them to bed at 7:30 and you've loaded up that movie you're gonna watch and you actually watch a movie from like 8 to 10. Like it could work if you plan ahead. But you know, the idea is that you have chosen it and it becomes leisure time that you are aware of. Like a lot of people have a story that I have no free time whatsoever. And when you go into your evenings and actually have your 30 minutes of chosen leisure, like that can no longer be your story. Right. And it is so much better not to have this story because then we start recognizing our agency over our time, even just through 30 chosen minutes.

    30:45

    Yeah. And that ties into another idea you had in your prior book, the tranquility by Tuesday. The effortful before effortless, which I thought was just a great phrase and also captures a lot. Right. And the examples you just gave in terms of the kinds of things you could spend this half hour on a musical instrument are other things that maybe, you know, aren't just sitting back and passively watching. Right. Which you know, data shows Americans tend to do in great numbers. Yeah. Could you say a little bit about why that is? Why the effortful is, is more valuable or is, is important, I guess, to intentionally focus on Given that for a lot of people, the default assumption is that whatever's easier is what they should turn to because they've already worked a full day, why not just sit back and lounge, right?

    31:34

    Yeah. Well, one of the reasons people feel like they're working all the time and have no leisure time is because work is more noticeable. Like, it is planned, it is intentional. Things happen at a certain time and we don't approach our leisure time that way. And obviously you're not going to be sending like, you know, outlook invites for dinner or like planning every 15 minutes or anything like that. But it is helpful to have some intention for your leisure time because then it does feel like it happened. So the categories of effortful fun and effortless fun, I think about this because so many people tell me, like, oh, I would love to have more time to read. I'd love to have more time for my hobbies, right? And yet, when you look at how people are spending their time, we spend a lot of time on what I call our electronic hobbies of surfing around online, like, doom scrolling, you know, responding to social media comments, all these things. And I'm not sure that any of us sort of in the abstract would choose that as how we wanted. Like, if I was gonna have a hobby, would it really be reading headlines? I don't think it would be. Like, that doesn't sound very fun. Sorry, excuse me. I've been talking a lot lately. So the idea for effortful fun to do before effortless fun is to challenge yourself anytime a spot of leisure appears to do just a few minutes of these sort of higher effort fun before you default to the effortless of screen time. And so that could be, you know, reading for a couple minutes. Like, say, okay, I'm picking up my phone. I am about to go on Instagram. Let me read an ebook for three minutes before I open the Instagram app. Now, one of two things will happen. One is that you will get so into your book that you will keep reading it, because effortful fun is fun. Like, once you get over the initial hurdle to start it and, you know, Instagram will still be there forever. So, like, that's fine. Like, you could. You could push it off a little bit, but. Or, you know, even if you do switch over, like, you at least have gotten some other form of fun, like, you will have had more of a balance. If you are, you know, reading for a few minutes and then doing your screen time versus if you start with the screen time, it's often very hard to stop and switch over to the more effortful varieties.

    34:01

    I want to touch on tools for a minute. I know. At least I shouldn't say I know. My sense from your book, since you don't talk a lot about technology, is that technology isn't kind of like a primary focus for you. Having said that though, for a lot of people who are reading this newsletter and who are interested in sort of AI and how other tools can help them in their lives, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about first of all, AI as a source for analyzing and identifying patterns in your own time. Curious if you've tried that in terms of feeding these time logs and seeing what are the patterns that an AI tool might draw from that and, or whether you find the AI useful in thinking about different possibilities. Like I was thinking about, you know, you had this thing in the book about brainstorming different ways you could spend 10 minute breaks and I was like, oh, actually that's something where I would be interested in what are the 25 things that my quad would tell you. Yeah, based on what I know, right. So anyway, yeah, I guess I'm curious about AI usage and thinking about your own time, analyzing your own time, brainstorming ideas and then also just more broadly like some of the tools, to the extent that you use some tools, which tools do you find actually useful for you?

    35:14

    Yeah, so I mean, I am not a big AI user. Honestly, I'm sure I'm terribly behind the eight ball on this, but it's, you know, I will figure out at some point what it is useful for for me. But currently, I mean, the things that I think a lot of people are potentially using it for are not things I would want. So like I was on a webinar recently where somebody's like, I use it to write all my newsletters and I'm like, yeah, I like writing. So that's like, you know, it'd be like paying a robot to like do a puzzle for me. I don't really understand what the point of that would be. So, you know, since I like writing, I would never use it for that. There are upsides for like brainstorming or researching things that you might, might need a little bit of help. So for instance, like, what are all the productivity newsletters out there? You know, feed that in and you know, comes up with a list of like 60. And you know, of them 30 I have heard of 30 I haven't. Of those 30 I haven't 15. It's because they don't exist. So you know, but then the 15 that I went and checked and found, I was like, oh, that's good. Well, I found some new ones. That's exciting. So there are some upsides with, I guess as long as you are carefully supervising as the human in charge and using it for your purposes, but not just as throwing it out into the world without any monitoring. I do think that people, since there's no downside really to feeding a time log into it and asking for insights, I guess that was the one time I had the thought that, oh, AI is going to take my job. That's what I do. I analyze people's time logs. You could totally do that though. You could put it in, say, well, what do you find? You know, what would you suggest? My experience from the people who've done this and told me about, you know, what various AI agents have found is it becomes a bit like, you know, like a tarot card or a fortune telling reading. Like if something feels right to you and it says it back to you, like then yeah, you're like, oh yeah, yeah, that's something. That's true, that's something I should do. But you know, like half the stuff may be like. Like what? You know, it's like you're going to bed at 8:30. Have you thought about going to bed also at 8:30 on this night or something? You know, it's just like it wouldn't necessarily be. You still have to kind of judge what's useful and what isn't from it. But that's like any advice, right?

    37:42

    And what about tools in a given day, like you look at yesterday, you're doing, I know, you're doing your book publicity, et cetera, you're managing a family, you're doing your career stuff. Like what are a few of the tools that you actually find useful in your workflow, in your toolkit?

    37:54

    Okay, let's see. I mean, this is going to sound so funny, okay, But I always say this as a tip because maybe there's like one person out there who doesn't know this and it could so save them time. If you are a parent who is like constantly needing to like scan and send back permission slips or like health forms or anything like that, you can just scan it from your phone as into as like a PDF that, you know, just go to the notes app in your app, iPhone and hit the paperclip and it comes up to scan. And so, you know, when I figured that out a few years ago and got to stop using my scanner and converting it to the little, you know, Memory thing and sending it over to my computer and then sending it back to people. I was like, this is beautiful. Like, I love it. Documents have become so much easier now. Do I wish everything was on, like, DocuSign? Of course. That's another thing that I enjoy when I can use that for it. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't use a whole lot of apps that often. I love cameras. Like, I love having photos. That's fun. You know, life was different when we couldn't take photos of every cute thing your kid was doing constantly. I enjoy that part. But if anyone's looking to track time and is thinking that an app might be helpful, I've had a couple of people have a good experience with Toggle, which is T o G G L. And the upside of that is that there is a free version. So you can get yourself the free version and just use that. And then if you decide you need more bells and whistles, there's obviously paid versions of that. There's lots of other paid time tracking apps on the market. But you would go into the market for a paid app then knowing what you needed. Having experimented for a while with toggl,

    39:41

    that's a great tip. Yeah. And I use one called Rise R I Z. And the nice thing about that one is it's less babysitting. It sort of automatically categorizes things for you, which is great because I always used to forget to re, you know, log all of those things from toggl. What about your writing? Like, you've written all these books? Do you have a toolkit used for that? Do you use just Microsoft Word and Google Docs? Like, do you have some tools that you use as part of that writing process?

    40:10

    Yeah, it is basically my Microsoft Word and Pages because I have Apple products, which means I had to buy Microsoft Word to convert it to it, to send it over to anyone else, which is a funny thing in its own right. But one thing I have started doing is that I got myself two computers just to have. I mean, basically it started like, I know a lot of people have bought a second monitor and that would have been the more efficient way to do this. But what it was is I had an old laptop that I was using and then it stopped having the functionality to do a lot of the new programs like Zoom and Google Meet and Teams and all that, which are very helpful too. And I want to do a shout out to those apps like, you know, anyone who started working in like the 90s, like before you could do stuff like that just the fact that we can talk and see each other is like, very, very exc. But so I had one laptop that stopped being able to run most of that. So of course I bought a new laptop and started migrating a lot of my stuff over there, but I hadn't migrated everything over there. So I was kind of like working on two different laptops and I'm like, you know, this is actually kind of nice. Cause I can write on one and have something else open on another and then have the notes without having to go in and out of things. And so obviously that's obvious. I'm sure to most people too, that having two monitors might be helpful and make you more productive because you just don't have the constant task switching in the same way that you would if you. If you only had one screen.

    41:44

    What about the podcast? You've been doing this daily podcast for anyone who doesn't know before breakfast, I've listened to for years, although I've always had to flash forward through all the ads at the beginning.

    41:55

    Sorry, Jeremy, I'm trying to make a living here.

    41:57

    I know, I know. I can't blame you. I can't blame you. But, but, but it's great because it's a micro podcast. And I've actually told people for forever that, like, we need more of those because not all the time do we want to listen to, you know, half hour, hour. We just want a nugget of insight, which is what you offer each time is one nugget, which is really useful in a couple minutes, which I think is great. So back to the tools question. How do you. How do you do that from a tools perspective?

    42:21

    Well, I mean, I'm sitting here in my recording closet, which, I mean, I just have a pretty fancy like, like microphone. I can kind of hold it up here, but, you know, it's going to fall all over the place now. I shouldn't have done that. And then I, you know, do like a recording device, you know, it's pretty straight.

    42:44

    A digital recorder.

    42:45

    Yeah, yeah, digital recorder.

    42:47

    And then you just send someone a

    42:48

    file and they, yeah, send them the file and they make it pretty. Put music before it, add the ads. Everyone then forwards through. But the reason for a micro podcast kind of thing is that, you know, there are just different lengths of time that people want to listen to stuff too. And most things are about 30 minutes, because most people's commutes are about 30 minutes. And a lot of people are in fact, still listening to podcasts in the car on the way to and from work. That's what people are doing. Or sometimes it's that they're doing a workout. But again, that is 30 minutes. So it's like, you know, this is the chunk of time that people are willing to listen to stuff. Although I still find it hilarious. People like fast forward through, like they not fast forward through ads, but like listen to things on like 1.5 or 2x speed, which again, if you are trying to fill the time on your commute, I'm not sure what would be the point of getting through it faster.

    43:47

    Yeah, I think it's this idea. I think you mentioned this in one of the books about how you know in your life you're only going to read some number of books. Right. And there's going to be far more greater number of books that you're not going to read. Right. And so I think as someone who occasionally does, I admit, listen to things on a hyper speed, I do so because with podcasts, for example, there are literally like 50 different podcasts that I think are really good. Like people like you have really thought out something useful. And I can learn from. And I can't listen to most of them, but. But if I listen to, you know, some of them a little bit faster, then I can learn from more people. Right. That's at least the rationale.

    44:25

    Jeremy. Just think of how fast you could listen to all of Beethoven's symphonies if you listen to those at 2x.

    44:30

    Music is an exception. Music, I think music definitely does not work at a different speed. Nor do movies, for that matter. Actually, there's somebody who I won't name who wrote about watching movies at extra fast speed. They looked for a feature. They found a way to do this in their movie watching tool of choice.

    44:51

    Choice. Oh my goodness.

    44:52

    Yeah, that's, that's. That I couldn't relate to because. But when it's a podcast where it's just information, you know, people are just sharing an idea. A lot of times people talk slower than we can listen. It's like faster than we type. So yeah, so I find it's okay in that realm. And there's a lot of gaps and there's a lot of filler in a lot of podcasts. Not, not in yours because it's pretty scripted, it's succinct, it's only two minutes or whatever. So. So it's, it's short. Anyway, back to the, back to the book. One of the things you talked about that I thought was interesting was this idea of thoughtful accessibility and the flexibility thing. You know, a lot of people have this perception that when you're talking about planning your time and being intentional, that that means like having everything scheduled out, that that's kind of the, the negative assumption some people might make. But you talk in that chapter about actually kind of having some freedom and flexibility and spontaneity and, and, and thoughtful accessibility, as you put it. Could you share a little bit about that and how that works with also being intentional?

    45:49

    Yeah. So I like thoughtful accessibility because we want new things to come to us. A lot of productivity literature is about saying no to things because the idea is we're all so busy we should say no. And to free up space, which there's something to that. I certainly don't want people to have things in their life that they don't wish to be doing. We do need to say no to certain things. But if you think about it, you soon see that almost all new opportunities and relationships and adventures come to us from saying yes to something that we don't entirely know about. Right? Something new to us. Because if you knew about it already, you'd be doing it. So you have to be open to new things in order to bring any sort of big breakthrough into your life. And so, so how do you thoughtfully make space for that? We do want boundaries, but the problem, again with building a wall around yourself, is that you will keep out bad things, but you will also keep out good things that don't have an explicit invitation. And until we are so famous and amazing that everyone is beating down the door to get to you, most opportunities do not come gift wrapped. Most opportunities come from you putting some work in. You meet with somebody and they mention, oh, you should really check out Bob. I think you and Bob would hit it off and you're like, okay, I'll reach out to Bob and you reach out to Bob. And then all of a sudden we realize you and Bob really could do some awesome things together. And that's where the new breakthrough comes from. But you won't do that. You won't put the effort in and reach out to new people and make time for this if you feel completely swamped. So we need to leave enough open space in our schedules that you can say yes to new opportunities. So the reason to clear out your schedule, the reason to say no to things, is not to just, you know, naturally have less going on. It's that you want the mental space to say yes when something awesome comes up. And that's true at work, but I'd say it's also true in our personal lives, there's some interesting research finding that people who feel like they are carrying a lot of the mental load of raising a family and running a household often feel less like they can take on anything else beyond that, regardless of how much time it is actually taking, it is the mental space and they feel like they don't have more mental space and so they're not willing to do new things. And I get it, you know, I have five kids, like, it's May right now. Do you know how many recitals, concerts, end of year events, you know, somebody's flashlight Friday, like, and you know, whatever that are happening right now. And it's all somewhere and it makes you feel like you can't take on anything new. But that, of course, is where the new opportunities come from. So I'm always trying to be careful about managing mental load and reducing that as much as possible so that I am willing to, you know, if a professional acquaintance is like, hey, Laura, we actually having this really cool meeting of people, like, you know, in somewhere, New York, Miami, wherever it is, like, would you like to come? I sometimes can say, yes, pass, because I've tried to keep all the other stuff from taking over all my brain.

    49:07

    One of the things that you talked about in this book is having each night of the week kind of preset so you don't have to make a decision necessarily. Monday is pasta night.

    49:15

    Right.

    49:15

    You wrote, are there other areas of your life where you're able to do that? Where I know famously Obama didn't want to choose clothing every day and that kind of thing. Are there other areas where you can reduce the complexity or decision making?

    49:29

    Yeah, I mean, there's. With anything in life, if you want to spend less time or mental energy on it, you can ignore it, you can minimize it, you can outsource it. And many of us wind up choosing some number, some combination of all those for different things in our lives. So, you know, meal planning is something that, like, I swear this is a cover line on every women's magazine, like every issue for time immemorial. And I get it on some level, but I've sort of made my peace with eating roughly the same thing most weeks, which are the number of meals that are. They're customizable, but like, that my family will eat. If we wanna do fun stuff, we do it on the weekend, right? Like, if we wanna make something cool and new and exciting. Saturday and Sunday are great nights for that, but Monday through Thursday are not. So we tend to, you know, we have pasta On Mondays, we currently are doing fajitas where we do breakfast for dinner. On Thursdays for.

    50:27

    That was the most surprising one. I was surprised you could do that year round.

    50:30

    Which one?

    50:31

    The breakfast.

    50:32

    The breakfast for dinner?

    50:33

    Yeah.

    50:33

    Well, I don't know. Everyone likes bacon, like, you know, you know, good stuff. So yeah, that's. Or, you know, like make your own pizza night. Right. So everyone can put what they want on their pizzas, but like bread and tomato sauce is pretty good base for anything else. And, you know, you can make it different every week if you want. But yeah, something like that. And because I'm not spending any, you know, mental energy meal prepping during the week, that is time that, you know, can devote to other things. You know, I. We. We have sort of a complicated family driving schedule, but it tends to be about the same most weeks, unless something comes up, you know, that somebody's traveling or whatever. And then, you know, we move it around. But, you know, we definitely have. Have help from other people. You know, my husband and I both work, so we cannot drive everyone everywhere they need to go. There's only two of us anyway, and there's more kids than that, so have to have other drivers in the afternoon for helping with that. For instance, when you look at your

    51:39

    career in terms of the line, your books have been very successful as far as I know, and they're very effective. I'm curious if you also are considering or have considered, you know, other kinds of books. You wrote a novel, which was really fun, and you wrote a book about money, I think, early on. Right. Which was interesting and sort of connected to time in some ways. Are there other subjects that you're excited about? You obviously have a passion for music. You have some other interests. Are there other books that you envision writing or plan to write at some point?

    52:08

    You know, I don't know. I do like writing fiction, so I'll probably do more of that. But the beautiful thing about time is that you can get about through just about anything through that lens. You can write profiles of people and talk about their schedules. You can write about organizations and how they do things strategically, because that's also kind of how they spend their organizational time on different things. You can write about history in terms of how people spend their time. You can write about social phenomenon, and this is also a function of how people are spending their time. So I haven't felt that limited in it yet. I'm sure there are new angles, but it's like anything in this world. You're trying to come up with the overlap between topics you are interested in that there's enough to say on and that other people are interested in, too. I mean, there's many other topics that I am interested in. I'm not sure that the audience for them would be quite as big as time. So we'll see. See, we'll see.

    53:18

    It can be always be a niche. A niche thing. Yeah, Use the term. Use. You talk about the Snoopy mindset of not last days. You know, there's this concept of, you know, this could be our last day. Right. That people sometimes like to say, you know, carpe diem, that kind of thing. Can you. Can you kind of explain that, that concept that not last days?

    53:40

    Yeah. I mean, there's always this tension, and people like, you should live every day as if it's your last on some level. Yes. You never know when you are going to die. We could be struck by lightning right now. It could happen. But this is kind of a unworkable concept. I want to see New Zealand, but I would not spend my last day on Earth on an airplane. Right. If I was going to live each day as if it's the last. It implies we should do the things that we want to do and life. But again, I'm not gonna spend 17 hours on an airplane if it's my last day on Earth. So, yeah. What I think we're getting at with this idea is that we should make space in our lives for the things we want to do. And we should not wait forever thinking that a time in the future will come. But for most of us, there was this cartoon, and it was like a bootleg Snoopy. It wasn't even the official one, but somebody was saying, someday we will die Snoopy. And he says, well, yes, but on all the other days, we will not. So I guess most other days we should live as if we are not going to die immediately, which allows us to invest in things for the future. Right. Like, if you truly thought you were going to die tomorrow, you wouldn't save money, but that would probably not a great idea. Like, you should be putting money away and saving and investing. You wouldn't develop skills that will be helpful for doing things in the future. Like, why would you practice the piano? You know, piano would bring you great joy playing in the future. But why would you practice if it was your last day on Earth? But when you recognize it's not your last day on Earth, most likely you're going to be around, then you can start investing time for the future and things that will bring you joy in the future. I mean, if anyone wants to see their death odds, the Social Security Administration publishes a very fascinating actuarial chart of what your odds are of dying in the next year. I'm happy to report that mine are very low. So turns out that women in their mid-40s are generally not in a shuffling off this mortal coil all that frequently. Odds go up as we get older. But even so, if you've made it to any given age, your odds of making it to the next year are pretty darn good. If you've made it to 92, the odds that you make it to 93 are excellent. In fact.

    55:52

    That's reassuring. That's reassuring with just a few minutes left. Thank you so much for this conversation, by the way. It's really a pleasure to talk with you. I want to ask you about kids. You have five kids, I have a couple of kids. A lot of the people watching and listening and reading may have children of their own as well. And we often think about our own time and how we're planning our own time. And I wonder what your thoughts are on how we can encourage kids to think about time in a way that's helpful for them, especially those kids who are over scheduled or busy or stressed, as many teenagers in America might be or elsewhere. Are there lessons you've imparted to your kids about this? I mean, obviously they learn from your example.

    56:27

    I'm sure they might learn from my example. But you will not be surprised to hear that my teenage children are not asking for my advice on time management. So. Right. You know, if mom is allegedly an expert on something, that definitely does not mean that we want to be helped by her expertise in this. No, no, no, they're good kids. But I think it's also part of coaching anyone about time management. And things like this is helping them figure out how they're going to manage their own time. And some of this is honestly just trial and error. And the good thing about learning it as you are, for instance, a younger teenager is that you then have those skills as you become older and as the stakes start to matter. So, you know, definitely when my kids are in middle school, I've had conversations with them as the homework starts getting there, like, okay, you have this assignment this week. When do you think you're gonna do it? My 11 year old had something that was due on Friday and he's like, like Thursday night. He's like, maybe even Friday morning on the bus. I'm like, okay, let's think about this a Little bit. That if you're doing the assignment due Friday, Friday morning on the bus, what could go wrong in this scenario? And you talk about, well, you know, the kid you want to talk with on the bus is on the bus, and you'd rather talk with that kid on the bus than, you know, do your homework assignment. It's like, okay, well, maybe, maybe Thursday night. Now, do you know everything that's involved in this assignment? Like, do you know that it is doable on Thursday night? Or are there multiple parts to it that might be helpful to stretch out over longer periods of time? And that's when people start looking at it and saying, oh, yeah, okay, that's a thought. Now, they still might not do it, but then they get the experience of the teacher being disappointed in them, their parents being sort of like, well, why did you do that? And then they realize, okay, maybe I could do it differently next time. And it's been actually really awesome to see, like, my older kids kind of struggle with some of that and then become much, much better as they realize that they have the power to manage their time and put more time into things and plan ahead and to see, you know, how their grades start going up as they do that, and that they can do really well in hard classes as they figure it out. So I've enjoyed watching that as a parent.

    58:58

    And now you have a kid at college, you mentioned, I think you graduated from Princeton a few years before I did or after I did. I should say. You're younger. What have you learned since then? That would be advice you'd give to people starting college now or continuing in college now in terms of how they use the time in that very different kind of environment.

    59:22

    Yeah. Well, I think the best thing you can do as a parent is help equip your child to manage their own time and when they. They go off and are not there with you. Right. Because I suspect that a lot of high school students are still leaning on their parents to help them manage their time, that their parents are the ones reminding them, like, you have to do this. You have to do this. Remember, you have X coming up. Like, did you, you know, sign up for that? Did you sign up for that? And on some level, it is helpful to be reminded of things, but you will not be able to do that eternally or you shouldn't, at least. So as much as you can sort of like putting that over on the kid more and more is great. As for people themselves starting school, you know, really avail yourself of a lot of professors will let you know, what's coming up. Like there's a syllabus somewhere. Like you can look at time more broadly. Like, you know, this is the whole like big time idea. The bigger you look at time, the more on top of it you will be like knowing what is coming up. And if you've just been accustomed looking at the day or the few days in front of you, you're not gonna manage your time as well and as sustainably as if you look at the whole semester. Like, what am I expected to do over this semester? I will probably be studying a lot, going into the finals and like writing my final paper. But I don't have to be crashing into that last week. If I've moved some of that back, right? Like if I've, you know, looked at everything that's coming up and make sure I'm covering this material ahead of time and reviewing it constantly. Like building in time to review even if you don't have something immediately taking do. And then the more you can do that over time, the better off you will be at the end.

    1:01:08

    That's really a great, a great bit of insight. I want to ask you about what you left out of the book and then we'll conclude what didn't fit in the book or what did you have to cut? I know that's always a part of

    1:01:18

    the process, especially when you keep, let's see. Oh, my goodness. Well, some is just my own idiosyncratic interest that my editor's finally like, no, no, no. In the introduction to Big Time, I do talk about one of my sessions, which is geological time and the end Permian extinction for anyone who wants to lie awake at night pondering something. So about 252 million years ago, life was almost wiped off planet Earth. So this was a big extinction before the one that happened with the dinosaurs. So the dinosaurs were 65 million years ago in Permian was 252 million years ago. It's sort of just like, you know, know, like the fact that we're even here is so odd, so crazy. But then I threw in some like, other geological thing, like about, you know, in the Carnian pluvial event during the Triassic, when it rained for a million years. Like, okay, Laura, you go write the book about ancient Earth history if that's what you want to write about. This is a time management book. People will, you know, that's great.

    1:02:28

    That's great. Well, you are one of the few authors for whom I, I read, you know, I look forward to every new book and I read every new book, and I talk to people about you and include your insights in, you know, kind of in the way that we pay it forward in a way like we. We share what we've learned from those we've learned it. And. And so it's. It's been a great pleasure to. To talk with you and to keep reading your books and congrats on all the. The. The great impact you have on people in. In this. In this. In this way. I think people's time is. Is something that they don't always manage as well as they'd like, and you really help people to do better at that. So thanks for that. And anyone who hasn't read one of her books, this is a great one. Tranquility By Tuesday was also a very good one. And 168 hours, any of those three would be a great one to start with. And then your podcasts, which you still keep doing. Right. How long has it been at this point? The Daily one, I mean, the.

    1:03:19

    The Daily one before breakfast, has been running since early 2019. Early 2019. So seven years.

    1:03:24

    Every single day. Every single day.

    1:03:26

    Every single day.

    1:03:27

    But you batched them, I'm assuming.

    1:03:28

    I batched them, yes. Yes. So I actually. No, no, no worries. I was not, like, you know, in the hospital delivering my fifth kid and, like, recording a podcast. Like I, you know, record these episodes ahead and batch them. So it was.

    1:03:40

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. It's great stuff. Thank you. Thanks, Laura. And it's great to actually get the chance to. To talk to you.

    1:03:45

    Yeah, this was awesome. Thank you so much, Jeremy. Really appreciate it.

    1:03:48

    Thanks everyone for. For joining.

    1:03:50

    Thank you.

    1:03:51

    Bye.

    1:03:51

    Bye.

    What I Learned About Time đŸ•°ïž

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